Stolen from Deltachat
For me, they both suck. I’ve been on Linux for close to 10 years now and continue to enjoy it more and more.
However, I will say, that if I need to recommend a computer to somebody who knows nothing about computers and doesn’t want to know anything, I will recommend Apple. I die a little inside each time though, knowing about their right to repair and privacy policies.
I would never recommend an apple computer unless it’s for audio production. Getting one fixed is a nightmare
Honestly, if y’all would help your friend out with Linux they might be interested. If you just write down a note for them with the most basic commands for Debian, they would be okay.
DE: Use GNOME
Partiton layout: Use default /home for everything, don’t make seperate partitions for /root, /var, etc.
Add their user(s) to the sudoers file
CTRL+ALT+T to open the command line
Basic commands:
sudo apt-get update
sudo apt-get upgrade
Install Flatpak, and bookmark Flathub in their browser. That should be good enough and honestly anyone could figure this out.
You clearly don’t have much experience with the full bell curve of people’s ability with computers.
Be a good neighbor and teach them then. It’s not as hard as most people think it is. I’ve taught my mom, grandma, and friend how to use Linux before. My grandma uses Debian daily and she only had experience with computers by playing those online casino sites. Now she does it in full freedom and now I saved her some extra dough to throw into becoming a online casino addict! Yay grandma!
librechad flexing his 500 iq family and friends
meanwhile in my family:
I am trying to say you guys should set it up for them, make it easy for them. It is very easy to just setup a taskbar and let them click on the browser, file explorer, etc.
I’m not sure why you are being downvoted but I agree with you. Helping them set up the first time makes their transition to Linux smoother. I just had someone’s laptop prepared with the steps you outlined in your previous comment and left them on how to install flatpak apps. They said they want to learn more beyond flatpak and genuinely interested how to learn to install the distro themselves.
Sometimes a broken tool is the right tool for the job.
I have often chosen MacOS over Windows, though Windows has come a long way since 95. It isn’t as infuriating to use anymore.
I’ve been a Mac user off and on since the late 80s and used Windows and Linux off and on since the 90s.
For the last 10+ years: Mac laptop, Linux desktop, and a Windows laptop for the occasional times it is convenient.
I cant wait to fully abandon windows with my next tower (Already on Linux with my deck) but MacOS is FAR MORE cancer than M$, part of the issue with M$ is it keeps trying to be more and more like Apple
2 edits: I think someone replied to this and then blocked me (or someone I’ve blocked replied to me somehow) as apparently theres a response to this but I cant see it nor have I been notified
And
Damn, a lot of you apparently want a mega corp have complete control over what what your operating system looks like/does/what accessories you can buy for it if you think Apple is in anyway better than Microsoft. I thought the whole point of jumping to linux was freedom, you have LESS freedom with macs than with PC’s
M$ is it keeps trying to be more and more like Apple
Apple has adverts in macos somehow, but I’m not sure what it means since I’ve never seen ads in there. Perhaps they’re in app store or safari or something, but I don’t use either, so I don’t know.
Windows on the other hand pumps ads on you right at first boot on desktop. I’m sure it’s possible to turn them off somehow, but I usually choose to turn them off by installing Linux.
I find I have plenty of freedom on a Mac
Ehh, I’m not sure. In my experience, apple users are too tech illiterate to have any opinions on windows, not even incorrect ones.
Yet everytime you open Twitter they act like they know what they’re talking about and send clown emojis whenever someone responds with a counter argument
Linus Torvalds uses MacBooks.
Well, “tech illiterate” is relative. Some people may be ignorant of how their desktop works, but do wonderful things with PD or something else for synthesizing music, which requires knowing lots of math and music theory and signal processing.
Never be arrogant, please remember than people doing actual stuff - developers, business analysts, musicians, artists etc, and even lowly office workers sometimes, - are kinda more important than IT personnel. There are of course infrastructure and network admins who know their sh*t quite well and get paid accordingly.
Haha yup it sucks
My stepdad used iMac because he doesn’t like Windows.
I got haggled for being a macos user in college because, “pc was superior”. Turns out, that the CompSci people that gave me shit about my Mac, didn’t understand the difference between “PC” and "Windows’. My MacBook is still the best laptop I’ve ever owned. It literally survived having beer being pulled into it’s fan, and it’s battery turned into a balloon long ago… it still runs fine, almost a decade later (if I keep it plugged in). I was “tech illiterate” to people because I used a MacBook. But switching from windows to mac, got me comfortable with trying linux. It got me comfortable with being uncomfortable, because I was constantly trying to figure out how to “get this to work on macos”
I’ve met a lot of tech-illiterate people over the years… and they all gave me less shit about trying something different.
I don’t use arch btw
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Um, what? I don’t think windows is private or open.
and doesn’t view your private data and uploads it to the cloud
Oh, someone didn’t read their OS’s privacy policy…
I use Windows and Mac but I would think that Mac is slightly better. Just because I got this privacy statement off them once where they said they will do as much processing locally as they can, rather than sending it off to the cloud to be processed. I just appreciate that they acknowledge that.
Also, Windows has just swapped to a new default email app that requires I sync my email with their own servers. They can fuck off with that.
I think you’re confusing MacOS with iOS.
In what way is macOS more closed than Windows? The kernel is open source, the app store and cloud stuff is entirely optional, and it runs most Unix-y stuff natively.
The kernel is open source
the only thing about is that it WAS opensource
In what way is macOS more closed than Windows?
In the ability to legally and without hassle install it on random PCs.
The kernel is open source
The actual userland is proprietary in both cases. Opening Apple Terminal on macOS and using homebrew is as “open” as running Windows Terminal with WSL: Basically the things in the terminal are FOSS, the graphical surroundings of both systems aren’t.
Having used both, I don’t find WSL comparable to macOS’s native unix shell. Aside from the bloat of it, integration with the rest of the OS is troublesome on Windows, and WSL apps are second-class citizens. On macOS, there is no “rest of the OS” because the unix shell is fundamental. It’s not running in a virtual environment like WSL; it is the native environment.
Microsoft details some of the little gotchas of WSL in their FAQ: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/wsl/faq . A few notable ones:
the WSL 2 architecture uses virtualized networking components, which means that WSL 2 will behave similarly to a virtual machine – WSL 2 distributions will have a different IP address than the host machine (Windows OS).
As of right now WSL 2 does not include serial support, or USB device support
If you have no open file handles to Windows processes, the WSL VM will automatically be shut down. This means if you are using it as a web server, SSH into it to run your server and then exit, the VM could shut down because it is detecting that users are finished using it and will clean up its resources.
WSL is a great addition to Windows, but it’s still kind of a band-aid.
Having used both, I don’t find WSL comparable to macOS’s native unix shell.
I use Windows with openSUSE WSL, macOS with homebrew and “real” Linux.
Aside from the bloat of it
Which bloat? It’s just a regular terminal.
WSL 2 will behave similarly to a virtual machine
That’s not so much different from a sanboxed environment on native Linux where a Flatpak application can request file system access but not touch processes outside its sandbox. If anything, I prefer that I have all my regular openSUSE thingies (zypper, my own Build Service repository,…) available unmodified on Windows, whereas the macOS terminal (and I know that’s subjective) just feels off.
Which bloat? It’s just a regular terminal
It’s a virtual environment that requires installation of an entire Linux system. The disk and memory usage is not comparable to a native Unix OS.
It’s a virtual environment that requires installation of an entire Linux system. The disk and memory usage is not comparable to a native Unix OS.
Everything uses some sort of “virtual environment” these days. It’s not bloat, it’s the norm. homebrew does not use native macOS libraries except the very low level stuff. It handles its own dependencies. “Regular” macOS applications usually bundle their dependencies inside the .app folder bundle. On Linux, Flatpak installs its own dependencies. Heck, for whatever reason the Bazzite maintainers decided that installing Steam within a Arch Linux distrobox container is somehow preferable to the alternatives and Steam on Linux in turn uses “virtual environments” because the various Steam Linux Runtimes are specialized Ubuntu and Debian environments and every version of Proton is its own “virtual environment” of Windows.
I’ve bought a notebook almost exactly 10 years ago for €629 that had a 1TB hard drive and that I’ve upgraded to 16 or 24GB RAM for relatively little money (IIRC around €100). Sure, if you look at the insane prices that Apple asks for even a pathetic 8GB RAM / 256 GB SSD entry level MacBook, you surely want to avoid “bloat” but for many people in the regular x86 PC world a few “virtual environments” here and there don’t make a difference and aren’t considered bloat at all. If anything, for WSL users being able to run most unmodified Linux binaries is a benefit over relying on crappy ports of GTK to macOS and such because those ports of Linux software to macOS integrates so well…
I appreciate your well-reasoned arguments.
I disagree with the characterization of Homebrew as a “virtual environment”. It installs binaries and libraries in its own directory and by default adds those directories to your PATH. This makes them first-class entities on macOS. Unlike with WSL, there is no secondary kernel and no hypervisor. Everything runs natively within the macOS environment. There’s no bridge, no virtualizer, not even sandboxing with Homebrew or MacPorts. Homebrew and MacPorts do not install “Linux” software; they install Mac software.
As a real-world example, I can install newer versions of standard tools like openssl and kerberos5 via MacPorts or Homebrew, and native Mac apps that rely on those pick them up seamlessly. I don’t think that is realistic with WSL, if even possible.
I haven’t re-evaluated a lot of development stuff since the release of WSL2, so perhaps things are smoother now, but in WSL1 I found there to be a big disconnect between e.g. a Windows-native installation of Spyder and a WSL-based Python environment. If there is a way to set that up, rather than installing Spyder within WSL and wrestling with X11 to run it as a second-class GUI, I’d love to hear it.
From what I have gathered online, it seems like most people believe that macOS is (slightly) more private than Windows. macOSshow you detailed characterization of the telemetry, and you can turn most of it it off; whereas you cannot turn off basic telemetry in Windows.
I cannot verify this claim, since I never owned an apple product.
That being said, if I have to use a closed-source OS, I would probably choice window, since I am more familiar with it and it is (slightly) more open than macOS.
You can shut down all telemetry in Windows Pro/Enterprise, I believe. You probably could with regular, too, especially if you’re blocking all Microsoft domains via DNS, firewall, or other methods.
and you can turn most of it it off; whereas you cannot turn off basic telemetry in Windows.
If only most telemetry can be turned off on macOS, it retains some basic telemetry that cannot be turned off. How is that better than basic telemetry on Windows?
I use all 3 for different things and I’ll stop using windows the second gaming hardware and games work somewhere else the same way.
Have you tried Manjaro? Steam makes it pretty simple with proton (which is based on wine) to run games. (Or if you prefer, arch. Manjaro is arch with a gui installer)
OpenVMS is the way.
Windows > macos
I thought this until I actually tried windows, it just doesn’t work right ever and feels so weird and old. I wouldn’t use macos, but it’s fine, it feels competently made and for the most part makes sense.
Extracting archives on Windows… LOL
I havent done that on Win11 though
Yes, Windows feels old but at least is usable (10 was more usable that 11 in my opinion). MacOS feels very janky to me and you have to jump to various hoops to do basic things
All Apple products are designed for people who don’t use technology.
They hide the useful bits so people don’t hurt themselves.
It’s the Duplo of computing.
Tell me you’ve never used a Mac before without telling me.
#iPhonesAreForBoomers
I live with four other people. The two of us over 40 use Android and the others use iOS.
There are plenty of developers who use macs for work, me included. I mainly go with Mac for the build quality/battery life/performance though and also because my work pays for it so I don’t need to worry about the exorbitant price. I would agree that MacOS is pretty janky at times and it requires a few third party apps to be reasonable usable.
But I’m not really sure what you mean by useful bits? I don’t feel like I’m really restricted in MacOS. If there isn’t a UI element for something, you can probably adjust it in a terminal.
So if I understand you correctly, it’s more about the hardware and not the software that’s appealing to you?
Generally, yes. I like MacOS more than windows because it’s at least *nix.
But to be honest I have no strong opinions on OS when it comes to work. I’ve used windows*/Linux/MacOS and none have stood out as far superior to get my work done faster or more efficiently.
I use MacOS with my Mac because that’s what’s installed out of the box.
The main things that seem to hold me back from working efficiently are programs that are required by the company to maintain their ISO accreditation like Microsoft “intune” or what ever it’s called.
*Only when required.
What a ridiculously ignorant position to have. Do you even know how common it is for developers to run macOS?
You’re aware that there’s Unix underneath the pretty polish as well, right?
It is true though, developers use macs because they give you a useful unixy environment but Apple do try to keep that hidden because the people they actually market the devices to are the casual users. I find myself constantly fighting with macOS because it has decided that things must be done The Apple Way and I have to go to the forums to find out where they’re hiding the features. Obviously I’m not going to use Windows for a dev environment (I’m not a masochist), but it’s a shame that most companies can’t be bothered supporting a Linux desktop environment.
I think the recent line of MacBook Pros (M1 and onward) clearly have a focus on the professional segment - stopping the focus on very thin computers, touch bars instead of function keys and USB C ports only.
There’s definitely a disconnect between hardware and software. I quite like the hardware and like you say it’s definitely appropriate for the serious user. The OS that updates, changes my settings, and shouts about new emoji reaction features? Not so much!
I personally love those features as a developer, I don’t need every type of port pretty much just one would be enough in a perfect world we would use wireless to interface all peripherals and media items like cameras
I work in IT and i’d wager that 95+% of MacOS users don’t know how to find their Library folder or how to view other hidden directories. Keychain Access is also an unnecessarily convoluted system to use as a desktop password manager. The System Settings layout is also not intuitive (not that System Preferences was much better). And although MacOS is a *nix system, there have been plenty of times where I’ve had to Google certain commands to fix things that are different than on Linux.
It’s not true in the slightest. Terminal is an app that comes on every Mac and is shown in the Launchpad and Applications folders. It’s not hidden at all.
It’s not finding the terminal, it’s finding that you need to install xcode separately to configure or run things, or install brew for a proper package manager, or install third party tools to do basic actions like move windows around with keyboard shortcuts. It’s the “our way or the highway” attitude which drives a lot of how they design their software.
Windows for Dev is very common actually. And not just for .Net based stuff. Many devs that I know work on Windows. I used all three OS for Dev and I don’t know why Windows is always listed as a nightmare. Maybe fifteen years ago but not now.
Is that since the rise of WSL?
They actually heavily target Developers with MacBook Pro, they even have a whole conference every year dedicated to developers.
Also I think fighting with macOS is the problem, there are a few walled off things however it’s not nearly as bad as people make it out to be.
I don’t mean this in an accusatory way, but did you create your account just to talk up macs? I know some people really love them, but plenty of people have serious issues with Apple’s entire philosophy. The “our way or the highway” idea is great if you want to do everything their way but when that way doesn’t work for what you want to do then that’s what rubs people the wrong way.
To me it’s MacOS that feels weird.
Windows ≅ macos
I’m surprised you have more upvotes than downvotes, but yeah, this is a comment that I would expect to get lots and lots of votes.
Yup, it is simply so lost and uncontrolled that I could totally live in it and replace the garbage software with something else.
Agreed.
Hides my macOS KVM I setup for fun
Very interesting, how do you do that? Can you even set it up without an A$ account?
It requires a little bit of computer knowhow but is definitely possible, heres a video of a guy building a custom pc and installing macos on it Here is the open source software he used to do it
I followed this guide https://github.com/kholia/OSX-KVM
Surprised about the comments. Mac OS is actually certified Unix whereas Linux distros, while wonderful, aren’t. I’ve never had to use windows for anything other than games in the 90’s so I can’t speak to it now. I’ve used Irix, then Linux, and now Mac professionally. I find Mac to be meh after Mojave. Perhaps BSD was the answer all along.
If you pay enough money to people in important positions then even windows will be UNIX certified) nowadays everything is for sale
Mac users are at the sink right next to them also washing their hands. We don’t talk about the nasty things Linux users do with their hands.
All those filthy command line arguments <3
I got more pipes than a mario game.
Yeah seriously. I don’t show anyone my bash history. That’s nastay.
Are Mac users compatible with normal sinks and water or do they need an adapter?
Zing!
Adapter, unless the EU forced them to change that.
Apple will happily sell you a MagSafe dongle to dangle in the sink beside your neighbor.
Dongle me harder, senpai.
I wish every time someone talked shit about operating systems they woke up having switched OS with their grandmother.
She can’t rice worth shit.
Good thing I installed Mint on her PC then.
Cinnamon:
– Mom can we get windows?
– We already have windows at home.
Same lmao, but for both my grandparents
They still haven’t noticed anything different.
They definitely have, they are just being nice.
You gravely underestimate my grandparents’ inexperience with tech.
Mint is just Windows 10 but Linux anyway for normal use
I called her and convinced her to switch to DOS. Now you can play Chuck Yeager’s air combat. You’re welcome.
Commander Keen, ftw.
Zzt and Mechwarrior, thank u drive thru.
I would have iPadOS 💀 Thankfully I hate all OS’s equally.
What does that mean? Have the OS she had? Windows 10, I personally debloated it haha
No fair you cheated. She clicked an update for windows 11 and she loves Cortana!
Amen. Getting tired of this pointless bashing. They each have their flaws. I would love to be all-in on Linux but will probably never get there.
I don’t think my grandmother used computers
AfterliveOS?
I would be so okay with this. My grandmother was a boss with a badass gaming rig.
At least when I open up Mac OS, it doesn’t show me a pop up ad telling me how XBOX CONTROLLERS COME IN SO MANY COLORS NOW click here to buy.
I’ve gotten that pop up the last 3 times I’ve booted up my windows machine.
Windows is great for gaming. But it’s the only thing I turn that machine on for.
If you can’t even find the option to disable suggestions, can you even call yourself a computer expert?
No, but you can call yourself a gamer.
Gaming on Linux is pretty legit now. I don’t even boot into windows very often. In recent memory, only one AAA game didn’t work out of the box for me that required booting into windows.
No joke, most of my games work better on Linux because of proton than my Windows box. Such a nice experience.
Same here. Linux just need rolling gameplay recording and better controller support (steering wheels for one) and for me it’d be set. I know Decky has it for the Steam Deck but I haven’t seen one for desktop that works fine on Wayland.
Does OBS screen-capture not work?
Used it before but not for rolling recordings. I heard it can be janky with hotkeys on Wayland, but I’ll have to give it a shot.
Have a rather „expensive“ sim racing rig and would love to switch over to Linux again. But it’s simply a niche in a niche so I don’t expect any surprises in the near future. Too bad
Yeah, sim racing is very much left out in the Linux world, if not pretty janky. Virtual reality isn’t doing too hot here either, Valve just announced Steam Link for the Oculus headsets, and right now it’s Windows only.
TBF I haven’t actually tried Asetto Corsa with my steering wheel, or XPlane with my VR headset on Linux yet I just assumed it wouldn’t work. As soon as they do, I can’t wait to shitcan Windows forever.
I’ve tried Euro Truck Sim 2 with my G29, which was built for PlayStation but can work on PC with drivers on both Windows and Linux. On Linux, PS4 mode doesn’t work on Linux, but PS3 mode does - the main thing is you lose the speed indicators on your wheel, if you really want them speed lights you’ll have to go Windows and install G HUB.
Some say PS3 mode disables clutch support since that was the case when using it on a PS3 but IDK if this is the case on PC and specifically Linux. Cursory search points towards no.
I gave up on trying BattleBit for free on Ubuntu 22.04 this weekend, no Proton or GE-Proton version would run that motherfucker.
I didn’t feel like booting Windows.
So far black desert online is the only game that I’ve wanted to play that I can’t on Linux (eac is awful). I know there are others, but it’s mainly fps games that bother with windows-only eac and I don’t play fps games all that much. Battlebit is probably the only fps I’ve been playing in the past few months, and they use/will be using a linux-compatible eac version which I’m jazzed about
Actually, EAC has a Proton-compatible build, the devs just have to use it. It’s not a hard switch, they just have to choose to allow Linux compatibility, which most devs (well, really it’s probably an exec level decision) do not.
Really sucks because older games will likely never get this. Looking at ones like Ghost Recon Wildlands. I do not care for the newer release but was excited to play Wildlands with my brother from my Steam Deck.
Game loaded just fine into the world and then I got kicked within a few seconds with a EAC error.
it doesnt seem to be that way, https://www.gamingonlinux.com/2022/01/easy-anti-cheat-not-as-simple-as-expected-for-proton-and-steam-deck/
That’s unfortunate, but not surprising. I can’t exactly expect Epic to port the wine compatible version to the old release, so it makes sense.
From the controversy around battlebit using eac, apparently the eac version that is just a checkmark for proton/Linux support is not a drop in replacement for the regular one that is more popular. The one with that option would require a lot of refactoring code, and doesn’t have all of the features of the main eac unfortunately.
In black desert’s case, there’s no chance they would ever allow anyone to play without a kernel anti cheat, which EAC doesn’t allow on linux. The game is literally all grind, if bots could run on linux it would absolutely ravage the already shit economy.
I only ever boot Windows for VR. That’s it
Modding can be an issue though.
Btw, does Wallabag work now on Linux?
And i don’t get Reshade since 5.* to work in wine/proton anymore?
Yeah. I was literally just talking about how my SteamDeck is going to let me retire my remaining Windows PC. And by retire it, I mean install Linux, and continue to enjoy it.
Just disable everything I don’t get this on my pc
I’m also surprised that people see this kind of ads: I haven’t seen any since I removed Outlook free (after Windows prompted me to switch because the older UWP Mail app was being retired). I’m always surprised when people complain about the number of ads they get in Windows.
But that’s not the point: the point is no paid software should contain any ad.
Me either. Not that I’m advocating this BS practice!
The very first thing you have to do when you start to use a new Windows or phone is to spend an hour or two disabling all the bullshit options.
Not that I condone that notification, as I equally hate it too, but if you right-click it, you can tell Windows to never show those notifications ever again. I haven’t gotten one since doing that.
It’s still shitty, nonetheless, and I still fucking hate Windows. Only use it because I have to for work and gaming, for the most part.
I’ve never once seen this, is it W11?
I’m on W11 and have never seen an ad in the OS.
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I think it’s much more agressive in some territories. I’m in Europe an I never saw it either.
Otoh, I don’t boot windows very often, maybe once a month.
I have never ever seen this on my windows install.
swap macos for *BSD and I’d agree
Lol, is this meme for real? Most mac users would never touch Linux. Like, yes, they are both based on Unix… But come on now, this is just intellectually dishonest.
Most Mac users, in my experience, have no idea how to operate anything without an apple logo on it.
My Mac is such a slow piece of shit on Mac OS that it’s nearly unusable without installing Linux.
A lot of software development in a corporate environment is using a Mac as the host. Not to say it’s the target build env. So id say some Mac users know Linux far better than you think. In my experience.
Linux users are in the (well constructed) tent camp in the local park that Mac users ride their electric scooters past while desperately trying to avoid eye contact.
Linux users are the homeowners who build and fix everything they can, but look down on people that don’t find craftsmanship fun, claiming that they’re saving money by doing the work themselves. Good on you for having that hobby, but if you don’t enjoy it, spending time to learn those skills costs time that could be spent earning more money than you’d save. Paying an expert to do things you don’t enjoy is usually the cheaper option. They can be found almost anywhere, similar to how Linux users use Apple or windows products from time to time.
Mac users are suburb dwellers who view their way of life as what everyone should aspire to, ignorant to the downsides of sprawl and reliance on cars to go anywhere. Commute times suck, while walkable neighborhoods with public transit make most people healthier and happier. There’s an important classist component, often bundled with racism, that underscores this ideal.
Windows users are people that live in urban areas for work, trying to find reasonable rent or home prices as unchecked capitalism makes everything worse, but unaware why things suck. They get annoyed when people share their passion for handiwork, and dislike suburban folks for thinking they’re superior rather than the downsides to suburban life. However, because most people live this way, and live this way for work, they usually don’t have strong identities like suburbanites or handy homeowners.
Homeless people are those who can’t afford computers, overlapping with actual homeless people, and rural people are those that don’t use computers more than they need to, socializing face to face and literally touching grass.
This is a very interesting analogy, thanks for sharing
Thanks, Jessica.
They’re totally, definitely, absolutely not Jessica!
I think it still works. The user you describe doesn’t care about Linux, they just don’t like windows. So they would not wash their hands
