PS.
I would for vote Kamala. I would vote for a cactus with sunglasses if it had the Democratic nomination. You would do yourself well to consider anything that is weaking the resolve of the anti-trump sentiment straight poison to your brain. We have only one job this novemeber and that is to stop trump. The Supreme Court has given him the status of king. Quit acting like your vote is sacred and start realizing your vote is your final cry before your rights are forfeited.
Sad to say but if we vote Biden we’ll stave off civil war for another 4 years but nothing will get done because Republicans will block everything as they’ve done.
If trump gets elected a lot of plan 2025 bullshit will be implemented, Republicans will setup a outright theocracy based on religion and put our laws back to the 1800’s until the regular people (us) will protest and whine but we’ll be the kindling that the right will use to ignite widespread instability furthering their reasoning to further put laws against the people.
You won’t know until you know.
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100% is not going to be yelled at into voting for Biden.
But if you just shame them harder, or maybe tell them Democracy is even MORE on the line than ever ever, pinky promise (sorry we played this card then we didn’t even bother to prosecute the guy who put democracy on the line right before the election and whoopsie it went all fucky wucky and the clock ran out).
There is a culture of trolling and abuse that has been allowed to foment on lemmy where the only acceptable view is effectively a form of diet-facism that comes from within the culture around the DNC, where questioning the decisions and strategies of people who are objectively bad at winning elections is simply disallowed.
This thing’s over with Biden as candidate, and BNMW earned the L.
They didnt not prosecute him, sycophantic courts managed to delay until this point, and then scotus granted him immunity. That outcome should’ve been obvious when an impeachment couldnt even get through
Yep, democrats will do anything but appeal to the voters they actually need. Hillary didn’t campaign in Michigan and spent a fortune in campaign money in Texas, but they’re still blaming her loss on Jill Stein (as if people that would rather vote third party in a swing state would switch to the democrats if only you yelled at them enough).
Biden lost critical swing state Muslims, a swathe of Gen Z and there’s probably a bunch of independents that do care about the age issue and also don’t see the “great economy” Biden keeps talking about.
Idk how to tell you this. They dont need ledtists nearly as much as they need Obama-Ttump-Biden suburbanites in Wisconsin. Even jf you got a replacement candidate, they’d just be a moderate. Because an actual leftist is probably the only thing that would lose even harder
I’m not the one who put in Biden you dip shit. I primaried against him in 2020, was vocally against him in 2021, 2022, and 2023.
You fucking wish that a biden win is impossible. You are the trumper and the fascist and everything that goes with it because effectively, everything you do is for him.
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Who knew it was the guy online who was passionate about stopping trump that gave “everyone in the swing states” the ick.
Apologies.
“I don’t know why you get up in the morning, you’re just gonna die eventually anyway”
- bad_news (probably)
Easier just to block some folks.
Yes plug your ears to anyone who disagrees with you
lol you say you were against Biden until 2023? And now you’re this? Congratulations, you stand for absolutely nothing.
I hope Biden wins. And then I want him to go to The Hague. Y’all gotta quit pretending that Biden is the only thing saving your country from fascism. It’s an embarrassment.
You’re the embarrassment. Ushering in fascism and pretending you’re better than anyone. People dead in the streets you’ll sit at home drinking your own piss thinking, “I sure told that guy online once.”
Ushering in fascism and pretending you’re better than anyone.
Or maybe thats you?
Ok, let’s here it. How am I ushering fasicm.
Let me guess:
Im the one letting biden be the dnc candidate? Laughable
No one polling at his levels has won a Federal office, ever. Not once.
Biden can’t win. Its just what it is. He’s too unpopular with his own party, with likely Democrat voters, with Independents. And that was the case before his disastrous debate performance (and the extended disaster encoure he’s offered post-debate). Its just plain, boring as cake fact that this particular candidate is losing the election, severely. Its pretty well established that due to a variety of factors, we need to see a Democrat polling at 8-+ their competition nationally to be break even on election day, and ideally 12+ to be comfortable. Biden was up on Trump 8 going into election day, and barely squeaked by. 40k votes in like 3 counties in swing states made the entire difference. That victory was so tight it made our buttholes squeak.
You can’t stop fascism/ Trump/ Project 2025 with Biden as the candidate. The campaigns that are doing internal polling see that. And its not new new’s. Biden hasn’t been winning this race at any point in his campaign.
You have to make a choice: You can either make your commitment to stopping fascism and Trump and project 2025, or your commitment can be to Joe Biden.
You can’t have it both ways because the data is the clearest its literally ever been in American electoral politics: Joe Biden is going to lose this. It doesn’t matter if we have to figure out at the convention. It doesn’t matter if they want the delegates to decide or want to do another coronation. What matters is that if you refuse to get on the side of replacing Biden, you are conceding this election to DJT and come what may.
Cake is delicious, not boring.
There is no side to get on. Joe Biden has to step down. Then we can talk.
Here’s your meme, “take it up with Joe.”
“Blue MAGAs” “It’s over. You lost”
This troll has no intention of having a meaningful discussion. He lives in a bizarre reality where voting against a rapist, dictator, and felon is the same as going full cock in hand for an authoritarian. Block him and move on.
“Blue MAGA” What fucking fascist circlejerk birthed that nonsense?
The term has been around for just over a year.
AKA Blue Fash/ Blue MAGA/ BNMW (But actually only Biden).
It started as a descriptor for those defending Biden running again (when it was a literal campaign promise that he would stick to one term). Got more traction when the DNC cancelled/ disallowed any debates that would have put Biden on stage and have him challenged from within the party. The DNC pushed for a coronation and fed the line that anyone challenging this was “for Trump” through their various mainstream and alternative outlets.
Dummies ate it up, and post October, say, November, when it was clear that Biden was taking the wrong side of the Gaza/ Israel issue and he started to see challenges to his policies from within the party, thats when the Blue MAGA rhetoric really got going. Its rhetorically very similar to what we saw coming from r/TheDonald in the earliest days of the MAGA movement. No space for nuance, gaslit trolling, vote-shaming, etc.
When we saw a write in campaign for Undecided, that should have been the “SLAM ON BREAKS/ PULL HANDLE TO STOP” moment for Joe Biden, but Blue MAGA, in both mainstream and social media, worked to prevent a serious discussion around Joe Biden until very recently, when it became so appealingly glaring that he couldn’t win, even their abuse wasn’t enough to halt the conversation.
No no no, people were shutting down anti-joe sentiment since the 2020 election. It’s not blue MAGA it’s corporate control. Reddit was being commercialized and anything left of Joe was bad for business. Lemmy is a silo so when people transitioned after the mod strike they were finally allowed to say the fucking truth. Unfortunately the tankies and right wing ideologues got here first because they were driven from reddit long before the leftists.
Most people were fine with the fact we had to throw down for joe again but because of obvious discourse bad actors have been amplifying in-fighting just about the time when there was nothing left anyone could do. They did the same thing with Bernie in 2016 and guess what, it’s working again.
This whole sub is a testament to it. April, May, June, none of my memes would have gotten traction.
I think this (if a bit dated) macro highlights the definition fairly well:
The know your meme article is worth a read. We’re both wrong on dates. It was coined in 2017. Obviously its usage has transformed several times, and I think my defintiion is probably the most accurate current working definition, specifically for the period from post WI/ MI/ MN primaries to now. Its the definition Jon Stewart used recently.
Another example is MSNBC host Joy Reid saying she would vote for Joe Biden if he was in a coma. Or Whoopi saying she would vote for Joe Biden even if he was shitting his pants on stage.
And this is the whole rhetorical point. It doesn’t matter that these Blue MAGA have incredibly low standards or are only interested this one guy. Saying you want insist on running the comatose pants shitter is not convincing to others and its losing Democrats the elections, entirely. Hence the actual panic in the Democratic party at this point, because Joe Biden’s down ballot impacts are that you give team red a super majority in BOTH the house and the senate.
If you actually care about winning the election, its not about you being convinced of something; its about what is going take to convince a majority of people other than you of something.
Most people were fine with the fact we had to throw down for joe again
See. This is just not TRUE. Its not supported by the data. Look at the previous 450 days of polling. Look at the write in campaigns when the DNC shut-down anything resembling a real primary. You have to come to terms with the actual material fact that no, most Democrats right now do not want Joe Biden as candidate. This intentional ignoring of the facts is what qualifies as Blue MAGA behaviror.
Polling data is notoriously shit. Joe won the primaries in 2020 and a better candidate has not emerged since. 2020 showed us that both candidates were not popular. Ever.
In fact, Joe gets less credit then he deserves because he has done phenomenal for being a fucking useless dinosaur.
Blue MAGA is thought terminating terminology and I will never submit to your fucking bullshit. I didn’t when you were screaming “alt-left” and I won’t wen you start saying blue-fash. You want the fucking “both sides” argument so hard and it’s absolute shit.
Edit:
Also love the fact that “only political DNC insiders votes should count” is in your meme and that’s exactly what you want to happen at the convention.
Blue MAGA
If you’ve lost your connection to reality, and it seems like you have, I don’t know what other term to use for you. And its accurate in the sense that Red MAGA and now, you, with Blue MAGA, are in a cult that has completely detached its self from reality. The only thing guiding your rhetoric is your fear and your feelings. You have nothing to back up your argument for supporting Biden. When confronted with reality, you dismiss it.
Its sad to see whats happened to supposed “leftists”.
You are a walking definition of Blue MAGA.
It started as a descriptor for those defending Biden running again (when it was a literal campaign promise that he would stick to one term).
It literally wasn’t a campaign promise. I know all you ever do is misrepresent things. But for Christ’s sake at least put basic effort into making it hard to fact check your lies when you troll. “Aids signaling he might be a one term president” doesn’t constitute a campaign promise.
Axios doesn’t agree with you:
https://www.axios.com/2024/07/03/biden-campaign-democrats-pledge-one-term
What this axios? From the literal link you just posted?
**The big picture: **Biden never made an explicit public promise to serve just one term — though Politico reported that he had privately told advisers that he wouldn’t run again.
The bottom line: Biden’s 2020 promises might not matter much to voters in the grand scheme of things, according to Fowler. “If the voters believed that Joe Biden was the best person for the job, and they were excited to vote for him, they would still be happy to vote for him regardless of whether he had said in 2020 that he was likely to be a one-term president or was just going to be a short-term bridge,” he said. “Unfortunately, there aren’t a lot of voters who are enthusiastic about voting for Biden right now.”
It was a campaign promise dude. It was in his rhetoric. He said it several times. Was it litterally in his platform? Did he sign a contract? No but thats never how campaign promises work.
You are being obtuse if you think that’s how campaign promises are made.
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And like clockwork, here you are.
How does it feel to be on the losing side of history AGAIN?!
There are a lot of hypothetical conversations in this thread about fascism and “November” but for me this election is about something actually happening right now. People are being exterminated by US weapons in Gaza. I will not be voting for an administration that sanctions genocide. There has to be a political price for this kind of behavior.
I can’t acknowledge voting for the Democratic party as “the lesser of two evils.” To me it looks like Americans are afraid of losing their country, while the rest of the world has been running for cover from American weapons for over a century. The era of American exceptionalism and impunity is over. It’s time to rejoin the rest of the world. “Fascism or genocide” is not going to cut it.
Why do you prefer being killed yourself and still watching genocide happen?
Because for me politics is about principles and voting for my own interests and the interests of the greater good. There are people who are running who represent those interests. The duopoly is all about scaring people into voting for one of them, and I’m not going to respond to scare tactics.
Democracy is also about accepting multiple viewpoints and arguing your own. I won’t be intimidated by this kind of thing.
Fam, Im not trying to intimidate you into shit. I’m scared shitless because you’re willing to toss entire demographics under the bus for people halfway across the world that probably don’t even like you. Im sympathetic to wanting to be principled, but enabling another genocide for the sake of that moral stance isnt worth it. The duopoly doesnt exist because people have no valuea, it exists because aby FTTP system will always produce a duipoly. Even if you want to change that, it’ll have to be done through one of the major parties
This narrative that it ends with Palestinians is insane to me. Democrats are by and large openly supportive of this genocide, and its not going to end there. They’re cowtowing to the rights hatred of Muslims now, anyone who thinks they won’t move onto trans folk next chasing Republican voters because they keep telling the left to eat shit is willfully blind.
I think that’s a naive position honestly. The major parties have in their interest the perpetuation of American imperial hegemony, at the expense of people worldwide that it considers expendable, as well as the planetary ecosystem. I have a lot more sympathy for victims of this system than people who have benefited from it (albeit indirectly or unknowingly).
While watching it get even more backing from the US
And trump will triple that backing, hell probably send our own guys to do it. Actually stopping the genocide is not on the table rn, sorry
Yeah, if anyone is going to put US boots on the ground, it is Trump
“Fascism or genocide” is not going to cut it.
That’s the choice we’ve been given though. Except it’s really more like “fascism AND genocide or just genocide”.
A vote for dems is still a vote for fascism. They’ve got 3 bills right now in congress to stifle and delegitamize leftist organizations.
What you mean is “disrupting my day to day life fascism and genocide or status quo fascism or genocide”
They’ve got 3 bills right now in congress to stifle and delegitamize leftist organizations.
Which bills are these?
I’m blanking on the third one at the moment but one is to streamline stripping nonprofit status of organizations that “support terrorism” (Palestine) and the other makes any criticism whatsoever of Israel legally antisemitic hate speech which again is largely going to affect leftist orgs but will also allow the board of education to strip funding and accreditation from colleges that allow pro-Palestinian protests.
I would label these as pro zionist bills.
They have nothing to do with government provided public services.
and the other makes any criticism whatsoever of Israel legally antisemitic hate speech which again is largely going to affect leftist orgs but will also allow the board of education to strip funding and accreditation from colleges that allow pro-Palestinian protests.
Reading this bil…
This is the definition of antisemitism the bill adopts: https://holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definition-antisemitism
Since the bill applies this definition to title VI, it would apply to any organization receiving federal funds subject to title VI.
Doesn’t count all criticism of Israel, you just can’t question it’s right to self determination, the validity or potential racism of a Jewish ethnostate, or levy any criticism that wouldn’t be leveled at literally any other nation in the same scenario. You also probably couldn’t speak Ill of AIPAC since that could be deemed demonizing Jews as collective.
Can’t strip college accreditation, could strip federal funding - basically they’d be stuck operating under the same kind of restraints a college that doesn’t want to follow title IX does.
I find it deeply amusing though that most of the people upset about this one would have been strongly in support of it prior to 10/7/23 as a move to fight white supremacy and neo-Nazis. If it was passed back then and been turned on students now it would have been a real “be careful what you wish for” moment.
Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic.
How many other countries have situations that match the Israel/Palestinian conflict?
The state of Israel doesn’t get to hide behind antisemitism. It is a system of governance, not a person, not a race, not a religion. It cannot be offended.
You can totally criticize Israel, just not for anything they do, say, or stand for.
So glad I can say the shape of their country looks silly #freedom
Really would have saved us all some time if you just said you were another right wing Zionist who wants to stamp out anything left of midright Biden.
Ok now you’re just calling anything you disagree with “fascism”.
Don’t take that the wrong way - I’m not trying to defend Democrats delegitamizing leftist organizations. But words have meaning, and when you just start throwing them around at everything that bothers you, you water down that meaning.
Thats just one example of many, regarding democrats exhibiting fascist behaviors and tendencies.
This Insistence that we not call any behavior fascist or any long standing trends problematic until they’ve reached their final form and theres nothing to be done does way more damage than calling something what it is when it checks 4 out of 5 instead of all 5 boxes
Being less overtly fascist than Project 2025 does not automatically make something not-fascist
You’re putting words in my mouth, on top of beating around the bush. Either say what you want to say directly, or don’t bother responding.
There are more than 2 choices.
If you consider “throwing my vote away on a third party that doesn’t stand a chance in our shitty FPTP system” a choice, then sure I guess
They may not win, but if you want to make a statement then third party is the option that is neither fascism nor genocide.
Ok, except if enough people vote third party, fascism will win. So I’m not sure that “statement” is a very strong one.
If enough votes 3rd party then maybe neither fascism nor genocide will win.
You may even influence future american policy away from fascism/genocide
That’s a naive take at best. Until we have voting reform, 3rd parties don’t actually have a chance of winning anything. The only thing voting for a 3rd party accomplishes in our shitty FPTP system is pulling votes away from the Democratic option, making the chances better for the Republican option.
I’ll do my duty and vote for Biden, but we’re going to lose with Biden.
- 37% approval-rating matching Jimmy Carter; no candidate in history won with those numbers.
- Biden has the most catastrophic debate performance in history, proving long-held fears by 75% of the electorate that Biden is too old 3 an immutable, worsening attribute.
- Biden was already hemorrhaging black and hispanic voters.
- Biden was already losing youth vote in part due to his position on Israel.
- Trump’s polls hardly budge after a full-blown criminal conviction.
- Trump seizes the narrative for the first time positively with a VP pick and TIME-cover magazine shots of him pumping his fist, defiant with a flag in the background as he’s covered in blood from an assassination attempt.
- Trump campaign has barely spent a nickle of their war chest money while Biden has been dumping their cash just to stay afloat in the polls as damage-control post-debate.
- Biden campaign team has ZERO strategy to change the trajectory of his terrible polls, including the 6 battleground states, all of which he trails in.
Ultimately it’s not me you have to convince; it’s the low-info battleground state swing-voter who now is either not voting or leaning Trump once again.
I will continue to advocate for Biden to step down until post-Convention; after that, well, I’ll probably bet money against his victory. That way, at least it’s win-win for me.
Trump didn’t get the predicted Marytr Bonus that normally follows a failed assassination, he can still do this.
Plus his Vice President is this guy - https://vxtwitter.com/JDVance1/status/1511311385543815180
Easily less likable than Paul Ryan
Even if he didn’t, which it certainly won’t hurt him, Biden is already underperforming not just his 2020 run by a full 10 points, he’s doing worse than Hillary’s 2016 run. I’m glad Trump chose Vance as it doesn’t help him, but again it doesn’t change the bottom-line.
We need to jump ship while there is still time.
Adam Schiff now just publicly called for for Biden to step down.
We need to be ready to stick to him no matter what if he doesn’t though
Indeed, we’d have no other better choice. It just puts me back where I was pre-Debate, but with less hope.
God I wish that debate never happened, I wasn’t even slightly worried about Biden’s chances until that made me go “Oh shit…”
People I know irl have actually switched to Trump because they’re worried Biden is a danger to himself and those around him. They keep saying “Oh Project 2025 will never pass, we got checks and balances”, but that’s not really true anymore
I’ll be honest… I was still worried, and I think the Biden camp was, too. I just fell in line and tried to do my part in highlighting the obvious contrast between a fascist old guy and just an old guy who means well. It’s why they took the debate in the first place because Biden’s numbers have been on a steadily downward slope even without major Republican spending.
I’ve heard similar, in a critical battleground state no less from the likes of my one uncle. Obama->Trump->Biden->Undecided/Leaning-Trump. :))
How the fuck can you go from Obama to Trump? Isn’t that like getting out of a Spike Lee joint and going “Can’t wait to tell the fellas at the Klan meeting about this awesome picture!”
Stress Project 2025, and show them THIS - https://vxtwitter.com/JDVance1/status/1511311385543815180 This ad was the moment I knew that Vance was a disgusting human being who needs to be nowhere near the White House.
I can’t believe they actually aired an ad that asks if I hate Mexicans with “Yes” being the answer the ad was not only expecting, but actively hoping for
Project 2025 is already well under way. The supreme court has seen to that
I want to die
His opponent only has 3% more approval.
Right but now compare that to 2020 disparity between candidates while keeping in mind Biden only won by 40,000 votes in 3 battleground states.
Doesn’t seem too far off. Maybe about 5-6% worse than july 2020.
And additionally 10 points down nationally from where Biden was in h2h polling when comparing 538 polling aggregates.
Whats worse between 2020 and 2024 is that Biden has had 3.5 years to prove himself, give the Americans a chance, and he still had terrible approval ratings. These numbers are likely baked in because the electorate is very familiar with both candidates.
Aren’t the 10% pretty moot, since it’s a two party system?
Wait two weeks and we can talk again, because we’re now at the time frame the trend for the final run will be set.
BTW, I have tagged you as “Both Sides Don’t vote” for a while now.
I think it matters because Democrats must outperform Republicans nationally in popular vote in order to have any chance at an Electoral College victory. On the eve of 2020 election, Biden was up 8% over Trump, won by 7 million votes, and yet ultimately only won by 40,000 critical votes in 3 battleground states largely decided by low-info swing voters who once voted for Obama, then Trump, and then Biden again. Thus, if he’s now down 3-6 points and not up 8 pts, that portends a sweeping Electoral defeat.
I guess we shall see for better or worse.
And honestly, what does that tag mean? I’ve never promoted BotH sIDeS and I’ve never advocated for anyone to not vote or vote 3rd party. Cite me otherwise. Good luck. Because I think you may be missing the nuance and forging a strawman out of my position.
Go state by state and it gets a lot worse. He’s poised to lose Michigan in a state the Dem Governor is going to swing by ten points.
Here’s the thing. Many of us on here agree with you, but there are many Americans who are not terminally online or politically charged as we are. Getting them to vote for an old man who is often incoherent will be difficult. We need a candidate who can get those people to actually vote, and I am not sure Biden is that guy in his current form. At the end of the day, I don’t care if it’s Biden or Harris or someone else, I just want to ensure that we put the best chance to win forward, and I am not convinced Biden is that person.
The real question we should be asking is, how do we motivate as many voters as possible, shit posting to people who have seen posts like this 700 times this week doesn’t do that.
You’ve got a choice between TWO old men who are often incoherent. Why pick the one who’s also the spawn of Satan?
His supporters aren’t rational, trump could be older and less coherent than Biden and they wouldn’t care. We can’t measure them in the same ways, as their supporters don’t look for the same things. People who will vote for trump don’t care what trump sounds like, as long as it’s trump. The people we need to show up and vote for Biden do care what he sounds like and how cogent he is.
This is the real problem we face. The problem isn’t getting people not to vote for trump, because people will, we need people to show up and vote for someone else.
Republicans win when no one shows up, Democrats win when everyone shows up. We need to make sure the candidate for the Dems is worth showing up for.
I’ve answered this one. We have to seriously hammer home how bad trump is. That doesn’t mean hit on every thing that makes him bad. Pick out the glaring ones, the ones that will impact your audience on a personal level.
Rule 1: Dont waste you’re time on trumpers but if you do just hammer home how trump and epstein are intimately connected. It won’t accomplish much but should leave every other talking point moot.
Suburban women: Trump has destroyed abortion rights and isn’t finished. They will lean heavily on the economy but just remind them Trump is responsible for more debt then any president before or after him. You can also make the appeal that the strength of the dollar is dependent on the US stability and Trump is nothing but unpredictable.
College educated: Trump is a threat to democracy. Sight how his Supreme Court Justices are running a muck.
Working class: … sorry gtg for now and watch game of thrones.
I’m just saying there is an angle to credible attack trump on every front because the main is a shit human being.
Until the next one. The republicans are a looming existential threat that senior democrats do not take seriously, nor do they know how to fight.
I hope we all remember the senior democrat leadership closing ranks to keep meaningful change (sanders) out during the last primary.
Joe’s got to go.
I agree with your assessment of the problem but not necessarily your proposed solution. The problem is senior Democratic leadership, including members of Congress and powerful hidden figures in the DNC. Those are the people we definitely want to get rid of as soon as we reasonably can.
My vote will be against Trump the Pedophile, no matter who it is, but I am beyond done with the dems. I agree that Joe needs to pass the torch to someone younger.
Just mark whoever has (D) on your ballot in November and stop paying attention to the presidential race. Your votes for your representatives and senators are FAR more impactful, and a United Democratic Congress is far more capable of stopping fascism than a Republican one
I mean trump has already been president and elections kept on being a real thing
Did you miss this whole January 6th thing? I can understand how… it was very minor.
Did elections stop that day? No. Did they stop with Trump while being the president? No
Face it, whoever gets to be president, will do so for 4 years. And boringly so, you guys will vote again, in 4 years time for a new candidate.
A recent Supreme Court ruling gives the president sweeping immunity. Do you think Trump won’t abuse that to keep himself or one of his friends in power ad infinitum?
You can guess all you want, that’s not reality tho.
That’s like saying, “Let’s not put the gun away even though the toddler is near it because there’s no guarantee the toddler will play with the gun”
Why do you have guns in front of a toddler in the first place without safeties.
Why are you not complying with home gun safety guidelines. Are you insane
Here, educate yourself
https://projectchildsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/PCS_FirearmsSafety_Jan2019_v2.pdf
I mean if you haven’t been paying attention to like… Anything, really, for the last 7 years, I could see how this line of reasoning makes sense in complete isolation.
“Guys just face it, Germany has never had a dictator, and Germany will never have a dictator because the system prevents it” - big brain Germans in 1933, probably.
Right, so? If we go with that then you can find anything to justify whatever you want, no point in arguing 😉
Wait, are you intentionally ignoring the scheme with the 7 false slates of electors that were poised to overturn the election? The only thing that stopped it was Pence’s unwillingness to go along with the scheme. JD Vance on the other hand is the opposite. So what are you basing your opinion on at this point?
Reality? Fact: trump was president. Another fact: elections didn’t stop happening? Same with many other republican and democrats. You guys will be fine
Can you address the scheme to overturn the election using false slate of electors in 7 states?
Are you intentionally ignoring what I just wrote? Can you address what I wrote?
This additude is how we end up with a Weekend at Bernie’s presidential candidate. Just like activism within national politics is essential to our country’s vitality and growth, activism within party politics is essential for the party to stay relevant and effective. Just as our country will be lost to corporatocracy, oligarchy, and bigotry if no one fights for democracy, justice, and equality, our party will succumb to corporate donors, consultants, and myopic geriatrics if we sit on the sidelines.
Dems have a serious old people problem. We are the party of Dianne Feinstein, who clung to her senate seat until death despite being literally senile. We are the party of Ruth Bader Ginsberg. Hillary Clinton is another symptom of the same disease. She used the power she accumulated within the party over decades to foist herself on a reluctant party base by calling in favors and pulling strings that only someone who has grown old floating in the stratosphere of national politics can.
This country needs a revolution, and it needs to start within the Democratic Party.
Is the cactus pro-genocide?
I agree. So we should all rally around a candidate who actually has a chance to beat Trump rather than blindly following some guy who’s comfortable handing over the White House as long as he, “tried his best.”
It’s not about that. It’s about sleep walking into fascism. Before the debate it was metaphorical. If you keep voting for the lesser evil you still get evil. It just takes longer.
Now we’re being asked to vote for someone who clearly cannot handle the duties of the office and is nothing more than a figurehead. Rubber stamping this does not protect democracy. It proves they can manufacture consent to put whoever they want in that office and you guys will keep pulling that lever thinking, “it could be worse”.
nothing more than a figurehead.
That figurehead happens to be surrounded by people who aren’t fascists and support policy that I mostly agree with, so I guess I’ll take my chances with them.
Sure, if you agree with the policies of the Oligarchy then who am I to stop you?
You’re already retired though right? Because if you aren’t then I wouldn’t plan on them allowing you to ever do so.
I guess if that’s what you think is the oligarchy, than I suppose I do. And no, I am not retired, but I would say I am fairly successful with decent savings and retirement set aside.
Ah yes a figure head of the party who did all this:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WhatBidenHasDone/comments/1abyvpa/the_complete_list_what_biden_has_done/
Is just as bad as the figure head of a fascist, xenophobic, racist, authoritarian, nationalist, religious zealot party because they are both figureheads. You’re right.
I’m not even going to start with a list put together by his base. The news can’t put one together that doesn’t get ripped to shreds once you actually look at it. I doubt his base has put together anything like a list that says what the policies actually do. And no the title of the bill or the PR elevator pitch has no relation to what it actually does. For example he actually severely cut EV subsidies and you all fell on your knees to thank him for it.
Literally your best argument against this NOT ALL OF THOSE ARE REAL BECAUSE HIS SUPPORTERS COMPILED IT SO IMMA VOTE FOR A FACIST RACIST
You’re fucking wild bro
I never said I was going to vote for Trump.
If your not voting, voting 3rd party, or voting for Trump …any of those is a vote for Trump in America’s presidential election.
Also your name is maggoty so…
And let’s not get distracted from the main point by straw manning here. Your argument is ridiculous.
No. No they aren’t. The only vote for Trump is an actual vote for Trump. Casting anyone who doesn’t support you as an other who must support the bad guy was bullshit when Bush did it and it’s bullshit now.
No it isn’t. It’s literally math and logic deduction. It’s the bullshit two party system’s failings.
Because you only have 2 options who are going to pull enough votes to win, throwing your vote to a 3rd party is taking a vote from biden. not voting is taking a vote from biden. all of that is equal to a vote for Trump.
Give his base a little more credit than that. They aren’t dumb enough to list the inflation reduction act, they call it environmental legislation.
Ok so let’s have Trump instead?
No, thanks. Vote for Biden so that we don’t have to repeat the fallout of 2016.
Vote for anyone but Biden, Trump, and RFK.
We aren’t too close to November to replace him.
Would you vote for Harris? Newsom?
Yeah. Probably.
If that’s true, what are the policy differences that qualifies them in you mind, vs Biden?
Well Harris has been critical of Israel, and that may have just been part of a communications strategy but it’s all we have to go for now. Other than that she’s far less likely to drop dead in the next 4 years and doesn’t have bouts of senility that can occur at the worst times. (Let’s be real, that debate hasn’t been properly explained, the white house is holding on to jet lag from a trip two weeks before the debate.) The pro corporate shit isn’t likely to change. And that’s something we’ll have to keep working on.
Newsom is the same. He hasn’t been directly critical of Israel but he has reached out to support the Palestinian community in California. Which is probably more important and real to his position as governor. But he’s a center dem just like Harris. And he’s also not likely to drop dead.
Both candidates will inherit many of Biden’s cabinet and staff and continue his policies. Newsom might take a lighter touch with immigration, (he’d have to frame it as trimming Biden’s EO to protect it from the courts), but other than that I don’t expect huge differences. Even differences I’d like to see.
Very reasonable expectations.
Maybe I’m not understanding your Biden position, then. It sounded like you refused to vote for Biden if he’s the nominee.
But you seem to be OK with his policies, minus his handling of Isreal. But you also acknowledge that little is likely to change under the other frontrunners, besides maybe being a little more sympathetic towards Gazians.
And given that you also expect him to drop dead or become mentally incapacitated in the next 4 years, it seems like Harris taking the baton is exactly what you want.
So why is a Biden vote completely unreasonable to you? Or is that not your position?
The risk of doing nothing becomes the greatest risk of all. It absolutely could be worse, we all lived through 4 years of Trump (and the aftermath re:Supreme Court appointments). We don’t need hypotheticals here, there’s a clear comparison between 4 years of Trump and 4 years of Biden, and not voting out of principal doesn’t stop anything.
In full transparency, I’m not voting for Biden in November because of the Palestinian Genocide and because I believe he’s already ineffective at protecting LGBTQ rights in red states. But I’m not here to tell you not to vote for him in November. I should have been more clear above. We have the momentum to replace him and vote for someone that isn’t just a figurehead. Biden and his allies are using the “vote blue no matter who” rhetoric as a club to stop people from talking about replacing him on the ticket. We can cross that bridge on August 23rd though, the day after the convention. Right now we need to fully and faithfully have the conversation about replacing him.
After November we need to better organize to prevent the mega donor class from steering us into a full Oligarchy. Something that’s on the plate for both old guys.
I hate to break it to you but if it’s Biden & Trump in November, regarding Palestinian Genocide and LGBTQ rights, Trump will absolutely be worse than Biden, so not voting for Biden will not change anything and just make things worse.
So this is an interesting issue. Either state’s rights are so strong that Blue States can protect LGBTQ people as hard as Red States have been persecuting them or Biden is willfully letting Red States persecute LGBTQ people.
So no it’s not going to be worse. It’s going to be the same as it ever was in either case. And as for the Palestinians, my heart goes out to them but my vote isn’t about what happens on the ground there. It’s about the permissive morality of contributing to it. If we’re willing to contribute to it there, then we’re willing to contribute to it here. And you can see it shaping up in rhetoric against marginalized people by politicians from both parties. They disagree about LGBTQ people because that’s a flashy issue they can use. The second you’re talking about homeless people and immigrants the rhetoric converges.
We just approved forcing homeless people into camps, destroying all of their property, and using them as forced labor if they resist. Immigrants aren’t far behind, we’re on to trying to deny them asylum because they showed on the wrong day and return them to the hands of cartels in Northern Mexico. Something that’s actually illegal according to our laws and international treaties we’ve signed. So now there’s a displaced person problem on our border and in history that translates to forced labor. If you have questions about that you should read up on refugee camps where western volunteer doctors learn not to ask too many questions. The dynamic works whether or not it’s officially declared a refugee camp.
I think all of these points really come down to the Supreme Court makeup, which got fucked under Trump. Trump was able to nominate 3 justices, which created the super majority we have now.
So no it’s not going to be worse. It’s going to be the same as it ever was in either case.
They have indicated that they want to undo previous decisions which codified gay rights. This isn’t a red state/blue state issue, it will affect the whole country.
We just approved forcing homeless people into camps
The same court made the decision about making homelessness illegal. The most direct way to stop these horrible decisions from being made will be to support the impeachment of the corrupt justices, and ensure that we have a president who will nominate justices who aren’t corrupt and taking away our rights.
Okay I need you to understand this. The Red States have been ignoring the old Supreme Court rulings. They do not care. and the Homeless laws I’m talking about were passed by Democrats, in contravention of old Supreme Court rulings.
This is not a SCOTUS issue. They’re the scapegoat on these issues and the myth that there would be substantive change if we just kept Biden in office.
Either States are powerful enough to ignore the federal government, or they aren’t. And the implications of that are not good for Biden either way. Because he’s either powerless, in which case so would Trump be, or he’s willfully allowing this, in which case the worst case scenario is already playing out.
The Red States have been ignoring the old Supreme Court rulings.
Citation needed. Regardless if states follow the rulings, the supreme court can shift the views of the nation. After 2015 same sex marriage ruling, there was much higher support for same sex marriage, with noticable large increases with Republicans corresponding to the Supreme Court ruling:
From the Article from 2017:
For the first time, a majority of Republicans and Republican-leaning independents do not oppose allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally.
To your other point:
myth that there would be substantive change if we just kept Biden in office.
When Biden assumed office, we were in the middle of a global pandemic, still social distancing because there were no vaccines, and we’re having a 9/11 worth of American deaths every day. Maybe returning to normal life wasn’t substantive for you, but there have been huge changes over the last 3.5 years of the Biden presidency.
Because he’s either powerless, in which case so would Trump be, or he’s willfully allowing this, in which case the worst case scenario is already playing out.
In this situation, do you think Trump would be willingly allowing atrocities or actively driving and enabling them? A Trump presidency would clearly be the worst case scenario here.
EDIT: just formatting
You’re right, and I’m getting real sick of the “shut up and fall in line” demand from democrats.
In this current system, EVERY election now will always be “the most important one ever”, with fascism at the front door and our democracy being at stake.
When the options are between (insert every terrible adjective that accurately describes him here) Trump, and ‘guy with obvious mental decline’ Biden, the blame doesn’t lie with the voter. If Joe Biden can’t earn people’s votes, the responsibility lies with Joe Biden and the Democrat establishment.
There are millions of leftist voters in this country who are being ignored by the two parties, and the democrats are hostile toward them and don’t want to move left to gain their votes. The leftist voters then get villainized by dems for seeking out a third party that better aligns with their values. “How dare you not fall in line! A vote for a third party is a vote for Trump!” No, it’s not. It’s exercising what little democracy we have left. The only vote for trump is an actual vote for trump.
The Democrat establishment simply doesn’t offer enough to anyone left of them. I don’t want the status quo; the status quo sucks. It’s a deregulated capitalist hellscape full of cruelty, slavery, wealth inequality, and planetary disaster.
I wish the dems could step back and realize what they are advocating for. The best and only choice for president is currently an 81-year-old man dealing with cognitive decline?! No, that’s not okay! That is not acceptable!
I dont know how to explain this to you, but appealing to leftists would cost alot more moderates than the other way around
That’s why we’re voting for the administration, not the man. And we’re voting AGAINST Trump, not FOR Biden.
But you tell yourself whatever it is that makes you feel good about turning your back on those who’s lives are going to essentially be made illegal. Because beneath it all- knowing what’s at stake, and choosing not to vote anyway, is admitting that none of the shit you’re “concerned” about really matters.
Well they’re already being made illegal, and all of the homeless people are going to be made illegal too. Don’t be surprised when they start going into camps together, no matter whose president. Because Biden isn’t fighting for them. He’s going tooth and nail to make sure GM isn’t pressured by actual competition and to make sure Landlords can still kill you for rent. But LGBTQ rights? shit, don’t make me laugh.
At any rate my comments here are about replacing him so we have a chance. Because Biden is losing this election. The people who actually elect the president are responding to pollsters and they’re telling everyone they won’t vote for Biden. It doesn’t matter if every democrat in every other state turns out. If they don’t get the 100,000 or so undecided people in swing states, it’s over. And we have a chance to avoid that.
It’s always interesting to see what you’ll tell yourself as an excuse. Whatever makes you sleep better at night man.
The rest of us just see you not giving a shit.
I don’t look forward to telling you that you were warned. But if you and the rest of the Biden club keep putting your heads in the sand we’re getting a 2016 repeat.
I’m sure it won’t be because of all the people not voting. But sure…. Blame voters. That’s makes total sense!
Oh it’s not just the voters that won’t even think about a replacement. It’s the dem leadership who put us into this position. But if you guys had even the smallest amount of courage to tell the dem leadership you won’t vote for Biden, he’d be gone tomorrow.
As long as it’s not your fault, right?
and is nothing more than a figurehead
Fine by me.
Come November, I will not be voting for an old guy named Biden. I will be voting for the Biden administration, an administration that rejoined the Paris climate accords, has made progress wrt medical debt, has seen decreasing levels of uninsured Americans, and made progress on myriad other issues. Because the alternative is…well, you know.
I am not voting for my ideal candidate, or my ideal administration, but that’s because 1) I’m not an accelerationist, and 2) I’m smart enough to know how this works given our deeply flawed voting system.
I’m not sure you can really have it both ways — the only alternatives for someone who doesn’t want Trump but won’t vote for Biden that I see are accelerationism, or complete and utter naivety…which is functionally equivalent to accelerationism.
I don’t agree that those are the only avenues left. Biden is vulnerable to a replacement campaign now. We can sidestep the entire thing. Get a good admin and a president strong enough to fight the inevitable reactionary shit from red states.
Yes, you can manufacture consent. That was obvious. What will you do about it? The question being asked isn’t, “how do we rebuild america.” It is what do we do in novemeber. Any thing else is purposeful obsfucation.
Short term, pressure for replacing Biden. November, vote if you can stomach it. Thereafter, get involved with your state party. March. If you’re in a red state then you have a unique position of running on more progressive things that are actually people oriented. That’s what led to Democrats taking state wide offices in Arizona. You aren’t beholden to the DNC’s mega donors.
If you’re in a blue state plan to help primary an establishment Democrat.
Don’t shirk away because you can’t do it yourself, that’s an unrealistic expectation. Organize your friends, your coworkers, your commuter bus, etc.
Nothing in politics is “over” if you can get a critical mass of people to agree to change things. And it’s really the only way off this manufactured consent treadmill for corporate power and profits we’ve been on for the last 40 years.
Edit to add- Confining the question to November is a logical fallacy. We aren’t that close to the election that we can do nothing but vote. So that’s pretty much just another attempt to get people to turn their brain off, vote, and then sit around waiting for the next thing their told to do. If we don’t “activate” and start acting independently of big money then we aren’t going to have a democracy come 2028, no matter which person is elected now. Biden is a vote for an Authoritarian Oligarchy. Which isn’t “Fascism” in a technical sense, but it’s not going to feel much different for you and me.
Rebuild it… Like how it was in which year?
Why rebuild it like it was in the past?
Exactly
I’m not the guy above but I like to answer that with “Giving everyone the rights and benefits white men enjoyed in the 1960’s.”
So then we’re building something new, not restoring to a previous state.
Then let’s get the hammers and nails out. New or old it doesn’t matter.
I would vote for the wrinkles on Biden’s nutsack before voting for Trump.
Believe it or not, completely smooth. Yeah I don’t know, just is.
Like eggs?
Old man nutsack gravity
The problem with this meme is that it’s written by a shelter middle class white person. Minorities and poor people HAVE been dying due to Democrats’ capitation and appeasement to Republicans for years now.
So… to summarize, conservatives are killing people, the democrats AREN’T killing people, but not doing enough to stop the people from being killed, sooooooo….
It’s best to just not try and stop the conservatives from killing more people?
Do I have that right?
the democrats AREN’T killing people, but not doing enough to stop the people from being killed
Biden is actively aiding and abetting the genocide by sending munitions and tens of billions of dollars of war funding to Israel, and using America’s UN security council veto to prevent the UN from acting.
Sigh…. Again-
Trump will do FAR worse. You know this. Everyone knows this. Biden is trying to put the brakes on things there and being diplomatic with Israel is not the easiest thing to do. You know damn well that if he tried to stop it, congress wouldn’t just block that from happening.
You people don’t ever seem to understand how politics work. You think knits just so easy to simply stop doing something.
Donnie “finish the job” Trump WANTS to support Israel. And if you get your way, he’s going to-
So stop with the bleeding heart bullshit. I’m not buying it. If you cared, you do whatever it takes to keep Trump from winning the White House.
You know damn well that if he tried to stop it, congress wouldn’t just block that from happening.
Congress has no control over the US using its Security Council veto to protect Israel at the UN.
That’s all Biden’s doing alone.
ROFL! Okay buddy.
Thank you for agreeing.
Ahhh, right. You’re putting the Edgelord’s “you agreed with me because you aren’t offering an argument!” card into play.
Whatever makes to feel like you’re not part of the problem dude. I said what needed be said. I’m not entering ignorance any longer.
Youre missing that those are literallynthe only two options that are available, and changing that is politically impossible
Oh I’m not missng anything. What I’m seeing is a lot of people that don’t under how shit works.
The projection is real
That’s extremely simplistic. The complicated truth is:
- It’s a law of political science (Duverger’s specifically) that a first-past-the-post system leads large, mass-appeal parties, and parties that don’t go for mass appeal will fail.
- In the US, the political balance is further pushed to the right by a) unequal representation that typically favors rural states and districts, most egregiously in the Senate, and b) denial of representation to particularly blue parts of the country like PR and DC. This means that relative to the country, Democrats cannot be as far left as Republicans are far right and still hold power. This can be observed in the simple fact that in the 21st century, Democrats have won 5/6 national popular votes, but have only controlled the Senate in 4/12 sessions.
- From 1 and 2, it follows that Democrats would effectively lose what little political power they have by taking a firm leftist stance, leading to effectively a one-party far right state.
duverger’s “law” is basically a tautology. it does not have predictive power.
How can you discuss the flaws of First past the post and NOT want to change the voting system?
Its not that we dont, but that we effectively cant. That requires a Constitutional amendment, which requires a two-thirds vote.in both the house and senate
You’re right, minorities and poor people have suffered and some died while Democrats were ostensibly in charge. What do you propose an American does on election day?
Barring a cataclysmic reordering of American politics, it’s still true that voting for anyone but the Democratic candidate will increase the odds of Trump winning. Trump is a blatant liar, corrupt, rapist, and racist. He’s promised to enact revenge on those he perceives as his enemies, and his proposed policies will cause suffering an order of magnitude more than what is already unjustly inflicted on minorities and the poor.
It sucks. We should have good candidates to choose from. We should have ranked choice voting and a multi-party system, but we don’t.
It’s inflicting harm on yourself and many others to do anything other than vote Democrat in November. There’s more we can do than vote, but that’s a bare minimum.
Oh shit. I found Candace Owens account!
Huh? Candance Owens downplays minorities’ struggles, much like Democrat toadies like yourself.
Except your are parroting her rhetoric… so I guess you’re down playing minority struggles.
she has never said that the problem with democrats is that they are too much like republicans.
Nah, plenty of people besides her say this. You’d know this if you ever actually listened to the minorities you demand blindly vote for you.
This is the most devisive argument I’ve encountered today. I can only imagine that a republican would be this divisive. Now I know.
I took a look at their profile. Best as I can tell they’re either a tankie or one of those “both sides” kids. You know the type. Not worth engaging with, IMO.
I feel like both groups fall under the idiotic umbrella of Republican.
Idk what tankies have to say about it, they’re cut from the same cloth as the maga chuds.
I would vote to shit my pants every day for the next four years before not voting against TFG.
