For many of us not working full time could mean the death or ruin of us and our family. That degree of anxiety allows for abuse in the work hierarchy, and I think this is at a minimum something we need to work to improve for everyones sake. Regardless of your work effort do you want to be around people scurrying around for no other reason than that they fear death or crippling debt? It doesn’t bring out anyone’s best.
This would be terribly unpopular on LinkedIn.
Gotta keep up that 24-7 365 grindset.
I agree. That’s why I said ‘fuck the system’ 13 years ago and haven’t spent a single second being a slave since then. Every day I wake up and don’t have to pay a house scalper is another victory against crapitalism.
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Homeless?
Super Rich?
I think about this a lot. We have essentially, purely through accident tbh, created a society that we are evolutionary unprepared to live in. So much of our typical day to day is actually horrible for our bodies and often antithetical to their good function.
In a strange way, it’s almost incredible. We have invented a rock that we cannot lift.
I have a friend who is probably going to become a nun, and the place where she seems likely to join is a convent which has very little contact with the outside world (it’s even on an island). It struck me that the monastic life seems like a pretty good escape from conditions that are objectively antithetical to humanity, especially if you’re someone whose faith is already a huge part of how they cope with the world.
Hell, I’d be tempted by it, if I had a compatible religious belief. Alas, I think that if I had a “vocation”[1], it would probably require me to stick around and work alongside others who are trying to build a more humane world. I can’t do much, but my sense of duty is greater than my desire to escape.
[1]: As I understand it, “vocation” has a particular meaning for Catholics. Here’s a definition I got from Google: “vocation in a religious context is how God calls you to serve Him in the world.”. “Vocation” came up a lot when my friend was discussing her plans. Despite me being hilariously far from being a Catholic, the concept resonated with me — perhaps because I’d loosely describe myself as an agnostic theist. I don’t believe in a God, per se, but the sense of duty I feel to things like Truth, Justice, Beauty etc. (all of which I feel the need to capitalise) — things which a more religious person might just call “God”.
1 ↩︎
B-b-b-b greed is human nature!
Yeah, go check out how any society outside of Europe worked before colonization. Winner writes the history!
The colonists were able to easily defeat most of the natives by out-arming them. But does anybody ever stop to think about why none of these societies ever invented guns? 🤔
That’s because you don’t lift the rock, you grind it. Try waking up earlier!
(jk)
Eh, agreed except it’s no accident. A small group of people have managed to convince everyone else to do all the lifting in exchange for crumbs and little green pieces of paper. We have allowed ourselves to become our own worst enemy rather than unite and explore the stars
Competition is good for a lot of things, but it also becomes a day-to-day race to the bottom that rewards whoever is willing to sacrifice more of their life for the sake of their job than others.
The logical consequence is exactly this: we back ourselves into an increasingly uncomfortable corner that leaves less room for living than we could easily enjoy with our current technology.
Competition is essential in almost all (if not just all) human interaction, as its what pushes us to better ourselves and our species. healthy competition has rules in place that all parties know, and if someone is hurt or confused the competition is stopped to assess and adjust if needed, like sports n shit. We forgot to add that to the economy, whoops
Actually capitalist competition hinder progress, by not allowing humanity to have a goal other than profit
So you just didn’t read my comment or what
But they’re better at lefting than you and they really need you to know it!
I think the commenter is focusing on the idea of ‘competition for what?’. ‘Better ourselves’ how, and for what purpose? I struggle with this myself, specifically in terms of motivating myself at work. i.e. What is the goal of all this (our working society, at large, not just my role as a cog).
No it’s not, people naturally wants to do better each day by themselves, for people they love and care.
Kinda sorta.
It is more that the things we are busy doing are not fulfilling. Half of everything we do is because we are forced to do it to survive.
Contrary to popular belief, people actually like to do things and to keep busy/be productive… when we have control over what those things are
Not being busy will make you braindead and depressed too = shorter lifespan
30 years in the forest, surrounded by family and friends, a life spent close to nature, around a fire, below skies that have not yet be tainted with light pollution. A naturally human schedule, based on natural cycles. Or a long life spent under a hazy sun and enough toys to distract you from how alone you are, surrounded by strangers and neighbors who have no reason to learn your name. I wonder which is longer, and which is more full.
I don’t think you understand what busy means, you are clearly busy spending time with your family and doing things to make them happy, helping friends, making fire.
That’s a productive life where you add value.
A life of chemicals, to extend your productivity and to extract what it can from you. A life looking for distractions, when the meaning was there. In the woods. In the plains. In the mountains, the valleys, in a natural garden of eden. We traded it all and all we got was a clock to make us all slaves.
I’m not a primitivist, but you’re also not wrong. For my part, I wish we could just make a better trade. We don’t need all the toys — just the ones that directly impact our flourishing.
It’s a balance. Not being busy is good sometimes; it’s called “resting” and it’s important for mental health.
But yes, to what I believe you’re trying to get across, being forced to be stagnant for extended periods of time (such as solitary confinement) can have deleterious effects on one’s mental and even physical health.
The point is also more about having agency over whether or not you have to be doing something and how you get to do it.
Yes I was merely adding to your earlier comment
Your statement does a poor job in its addition and neglects certain important nuances by being overly generalized in its phrasing.
“Not being busy” doesn’t make you braindead and depressed. It is an important distinction between simply “not being busy” and “being forced into stagnation to the point it becomes hazardous to your health”
Not a native speaker and living in different culture, commenting online is always a risky game. I wish people would understand the correct undertone.
Undertones are entirely social concepts and depend on the culture of a region, and usually involve nonverbal communication in things like tons and body language to discern differences. Adding the language barrier just complicates things even more.
Most people unfortunately don’t consciously consider this stuff and just assume everyone is like them.
So, as you said, commenting online is a risky game.
You can’t just state facts and then call it an unpopular opinion for likes
Is this your first day on the internet?
no but I’m getting tired of this “unpopular opinion but I think the sky is blue” shit
But then how is someone supposed to argue about how how the sky is red sometimes?
Got 'em.
I often find this aggravating, but in some cases, I think that stating an opinion as being unpopular is a defence mechanism that may stem from previous responses to said opinion.
On the topic of everyone being busy, for example, a friend once shared a similar opinion at work and their colleagues jumped on that opinion and argued against it in a manner that was effectively dick-measuring about how tired and burnt out they are, but how they’re going to take on more work nonetheless. It was an especially toxic work environment, but it’s not abnormal to find people who seem desperate to sacrifice themselves on the altar of capitalism.
I speculate that some of this bizarre defense of hyper productivity arises from people who are forced to work that way for so long that they start to think of it as a thing they choose to do. My friend was fortunate enough that he was able to quit his job to stay home with his newborn child, but far too many people don’t have that opportunity. I wonder if some of the men who mocked him for quitting the job did so because they wish they had been able to do the same thing, but given that that ship had long since sailed, pretending that they chose to stay at that shitty job helped them to weather the stress.
This is all a long-winded way of saying that I sympathise with people who hedge their beliefs with saying an opinion is “unpopular”. I think that sometimes, it’s a way of saying “this is something I believe, but I’m not actively trying to change your mind about it”. There may also be an element of someone hoping that people will say “idk what you mean, that’s not an unpopular opinion”, in search of validation. That’s annoying, but I’m sympathetic towards someone fishing for validation in this topic, at the very least.
It’s not that we’re too busy. It’s that we’re too busy without purpose. What’s the point of being busy when it doesn’t proportionately translate to having our needs met?
We have more abundance than ever before in all of human history, and yet we work harder than hunter-gatherers just to feed ourselves, and we have less leisure time than they did. We work more hours per day and have fewer days off per year than medieval serfs. And for what? What’s the purpose? So some asshole who was born on third base can buy another mansion?
Exactly! I work in a group home, so my work is very easy, but I want to go into IT, so I can actually go into a field I love
Preach.
Thats our monetary policy. People must consume more every year to create more inflation, as technology actively reduces the price of goods.
If goods get cheaper we have deflation, they create more money supply via lower interest rates, and the price of inelastic shelter gets bid up, and asset holders receive a value windfall until prices rise. Which is why we are at a higher price to income ratio than 2007.
People born closer to the gold standard are richer, they got in when currency wasnt tethered to consumption.
Look at any other mammals our size.
Specifically other primates and great apes.
They lounge in heards and eat plants.
Some of them fart 100s litres every single day. Fucking legends.
Once saw a gorilla shit a log as big as my head and then fling it ~30ft into a window that a family was viewing it from
Absolute legends
What a hero! Bless!
I’m depressed if I’m not
Me too. I enjoy my job, and I’d do it for free if I wouldn’t need money for almost everything, from my daily commute to breakfasts that both guarantee I can work at all. My paycheck is ignorant of this secret taxation.
Yeah there’s something to that. Like I feel as though we should always be doing stuff but not what it is that we’re currently doing?
Like, we should be waking up and having tea with our neighbors or helping out in our communities and stuff … perhaps just building, planting, fixing things that we’d like? I don’t feel as though we should be fighting deadlines constantly.
I don’t think it’s the level of busy - for most of human history mere survival took a lot more time than it would take us today if we worked directly on actual survival. The problem is that we do the survival by working on too much irrelevant shit that enriches other people, who keep making our share less and less.
From historical anthropology and studying modern hunter gatherer groups, I believe the current consensus is that these people work or worked between 20-30 hours a week. Please correct me if there is more recent information.
By golly you’re right, the consensus is that people in simple foraging societies worked about 6.5 hrs/day. Scholars seem to believe medieval peasants worked more like 8-16 hrs/day, depending on how long daylight lasted - but taking frequent rest breaks, festivals and other holidays.
The key part is that there was a massive amount of plant and animal life, so there was plenty to forage. Like 80% of all life compared to 10k years ago is dead now and we just have scraps left now.
False, we have plenty of life. It’s just that it’s mostly humans who are basically earth cancer
There is no reason why taxes pooled together from all of our incomes cannot be used to subsidize Healthcare, education and a basic living income for all citizens. But if everone no longer had to worry about survival, no one would put up with corporate abuse from rich cunts and plus if they’d paid their fair share of taxes and couldn’t just steal tax money to gamble with, they’d never be as filthy rich as they are to begin with.
What you describe is more or less the Nordic economic model, except the basic income. Corporate abuse is low, because it is not unthinkable to “not work” in response to such abuse, but also because unions are strong. Nevertheless, a lot of people still work a lot, so it doesn’t completely change the work/life balance oddity op is posting about.
taxes pooled together from all of our incomes cannot be used to subsidize Healthcare, education and a basic living income for all citizens
Well that’s how it’s done in most rich and even some poor countries. So I assume you are talking about the US which is indeed in a terrible situation with human rights for it’s wealth. And sadly voting red/blue won’t ever change it.
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Not the basic living income part, at least not anymore.
There is Social Security but it’s generally pretty miserable and nowadays not even enough to pay for rent (thanks to insane housing inflation all over the place) plus most supposedly developed countries haven’t been building much social housing in the last couple of decades (which is partly why the house price inflation is insane - less state built housing means less Supply but the Demand for new living places is still roughly the same).
Neoliberalism has been exported from the US to even the most Developed nations out there and that’s definitelly screwed up the Social Safety net (also Healthcare, even in countries without a national health service, as well as in some cases the quality of Education).
Also even when things were at their best, there was always this coverage gap for the lower end of the working class: the poor were the ones helped by the social safety net and above a certain income point which was in the area of blue collar work, people could live a pretty decent life from working, but there was a segment of the working class with people having to work shit jobs, juggling multiple jobs and so one just to make ends meet and were the help from social security wasn’t enough.
Even in the best countries this gap has been made much worse by decades of Neoliberalism, both by shrinking even further down the social safety net coverage (to just the trully miserable) and because on the upside income growth didn’t keep up with price growth so even parts of the middle class now have to work shit jobs and count their pennies to the end of the month.
Imagine not working and still being able to survive.
Looks like the slaves are getting upitty again
Jokes on you, I am unemployed.
Joke’s* on you
(The joke is on you.)
Helping their employment prospects one correction at a time.
Stress causes burnout. That’s something else.
Depression is when you don’t do anything. You won’t be “too busy”. You’re not even leaving your bedroom.
Anxious people can’t handle stress.
Depression isn’t only “when you don’t do anything.” That’s one of the forms severe depression can take, but it’s better generalized as persistent lack of positive emotions and/or motivation resulting from decreased brain activity in key areas
Also people diagnosed with anxiety can “handle stress,” just not to the level demanded by modern society without significant impairment and distress
Nah we cannot handle stress. The difference before and after anxiety medication is tremendous. I went as far as having stomach damage from anxiety. Losing 20 kg because the anxiety kept worsening the condition. Trust me, we cannot handle stress.
Depression’s enemy is serotonine and dopamine. If you aren’t stuck in your room, then you’re able to workout. Able to get going. It doesn’t feel like life’s worth living at those moments. Life’s on a pause button. But once you get that energy surge. Grab it with both hands and make sure that the motor doesn’t stop running.
Medication against depression is basically the same thing as you get from being active.
I took Amisulpride for a while against depression after losing the 20 kg, then now am on 10 mg sipralexa. I feel 0 depression whatsoever. Quite the opposite. I have too much energy.
never going back to anxiety disorder, it has nothing to do with the amount of work. It’s just how my brain is wired. I’m very productive right now because I’m not anxious.
I think how well anxious people cope with stress varies. I’m a pretty anxious person, but I’m actually incredibly good to have on hand in a crisis. I also bizarrely enjoy these situations, because of how much calmer I feel. Like, it’s not that I’m not anxious in these scenarios (there is at least one point where I had someone else’s life in my hands, and that was fucking terrifying), but it felt like good anxiety.
I’ve heard similar experiences from some others with anxiety (and one friend who effectively “solved” her anxiety by becoming a paramedic). it blows my mind how much variety there is in how ill mental health manifests, and how much we still have to learn about how things work.
I’m glad to hear that your medication has helped you. It’s awesome to find something that helps, and to be able to blitz through tasks that were previously impossible to do. I felt a similar thing when I started ADHD medication.
Wouldn’t that be adrenaline or such helping you be calm?
Personally the way I cannot handle stress would be: deadlines that aren’t feasible. I’d be scratching heart area because it would feel weird.
When I’m overly stressed, I can’t keep myself from scratching certain areas. As my mind is going wild.
In such situations I am completely useless to others. It should be illegal for me to drive on the road with a car in such moments too. It feels like I’m more impacted than when drunk.
It makes more sense to me if I consider the potential impact of hypervigilance — “the elevated state of constantly assessing potential threats around you”. It’s associated with PTSD, and whilst my paramedic friend doesn’t have a diagnosis of that, I know that their family were abusive, and they identified that much of their anxiety stemmed from hypervigilance.
It makes sense to me that if someone’s anxiety is being driven by hypervigilance (a chronically dysregulated stress response), that some people may find it beneficial to put themselves in genuinely high stress situations, to sort of channel the stress into a sensible outlet.
Another related example is that I have a friend who goes for a run when she feels very anxious. She says that she’s found it ineffective to try logicking her way out of feeling anxious, or trying to calm herself down, and that going for a run feels like saying to her body “you’re absolutely right, there was something scary here, but now we have escaped it, and can relax”. I always find it interesting how people sometimes speak about their bodies and brains and existing separately from themselves, often in an attempt to reconcile the tensions between different aspects of ourselves
Going for a run is good against anxiety. Mostly because of the hormones in releases.
Endorphins and serotonine. Anxiety medication is about increasing the amount of serotonine or dopamine that gets used by your body/brain.
That’s why I said earlier that people should workout when they are depressed. The problem with depressed people is that they are too depressed to work out.
Hence, when they finally get some energy back, they better get active and workout to prevent a future episode as harshly.
I have absolutely no idea about traumatic experiences. Can’t relate how that would feel.
My experience is just due to genetics, it’s not anything that my environment did to me.
Humans weren’t “meant” for anything. Your particular sub-brand of cell clumps just failed to go extinct fast enough, so now here you are.
So true! If you are too depressed to have any offspring you simply quit the game of evolutin and the world goes on. Delicious, delicious nihilism. Keep scrolling ;)
Hey, not thinking you’re railroaded by some higher power into having kids or whatever else is not nihilism. You just do what you wanna do, man, nature and fake deities can’t stop you.
But if that’s nihilism and you’re cool with it, nature can’t stop you from doing that, either.
Accepting that there is no meaning of life or that no one is ment for anything is pretty nihilistic. But that is OK, I have nothing against nihilism.
Back to your point, reproducing should be everyone’s concise choice. Going “quietly into th night”, choosing extinction, being selected out by evolution has always been an option. Just becouse trillions of your ancestors, dating back to single celled organisms reproduced doesn’t mean you have to.
Putting all tomfuckery aside, depression and extreme anxiety is likely lowering human diversity and we don’t even know how dire this will be. Humanity as a whole will probably adapt to this environment, as people too susceptible will have no kids. I did come close to removing my self from the game my self twice. Got lucky; got some good medication; pull my self out of that mass. Though I got old and somewhat infertile, almost missed my window. When you thinkig about stepping in front of a train, you don’t think about having kids. That doesn’t mean you won’t change your mind later.
But you should make your own decisions. You can read the opinions of internet randos like me, but the decision will always be yours.
I never said there is no meaning to life. I said humans aren’t “meant” to do anything.
There’s tons of meaning to life. You just get to choose what it is. There is no single unified thing you’re naturally “designed” to do. If your goal in life is to fold a million paper planes and throw them all off a cliff then go nuts. If it is 2.1 kids then go nuts, too.
Hey, I’m glad you got the help you needed. That’s good. That’s meaningful. That meant something. To you, almost certainly to the people in your life that care about you. Very likely to the people who helped you. Helping others IS a very popular meaning people get from life.
That’s the stuff that’s worth caring about, in my book. Couldn’t be further from nihilism.
Got a bit intense in the “maybe people should take more time off” thread, but hey. It’s true.
Good talk MudMan. Sorry that I dumped this on you! I have these episodes sometimes. You are a wonderful person.
Dedicating your life throwing paper planes down a cliff sounds very nihilistic though… Agree to disagree?
Agreed.
Humans weren’t “meant” for anything.
Hi, it’s me, the creator. Your purpose is to create entertaining content, but your output has been slipping lately. You live in a simulation created by my multiversal corporation, which didn’t meet growth expectations this cycle, so we’ll be making some cuts to your simulation’s fidelity — just a few fingers and toes for now. Try refocusing your civilization on pumping out Boss Baby movies (they’re very popular here!) and we can talk again in 172 of your years.
This is how I know you don’t exist.
I’ve been delightful.
I think you’re agreeing with the premise without realizing it. We weren’t meant to have the norms and expectations that society places on us to just survive. We’re not expected to just retain homeostasis and survival, part of that has been predicated on your “personal productivity” towards the systems that we live under. Access to community and group resources is something we’re made to seek out, but it’s been blocked behind paywalls and monetary requirements effectively.
No, I’m not.
We’re not expected by whom? Weren’t meant by whom?
Who’s doing the meaning and the expecting and the making?
Even beyond the weird metaphysical and iusnaturalist implications, this train of thought is how you end up with people drinking raw water and eating just boiled meat. We weren’t “made” to seek out community any more than we were “made” to not have antibiotics or die from appendicitis. Stop it.
No, I’m not.
👍 my bad sorry
We’re not expected by whom? Weren’t meant by whom?
Not sure what you mean here, to me I’m interpreting this as I was implying some kind of intelligent or intentional design which I think is a misunderstanding of most of the conversations in these comments
I don’t say “meant” as in there was an intent behind the design, neither did the original post. “Meant” as in what something was adapted for, like wild animals being “meant” to live in their habitat and not in a cage. Their biology and psychology was most suitable for their own habitat and moving them out of it is distressing just as the original post was illustrating. Our bodies weren’t optimized for this environment and it causes some distress in some regards. It’s kind of a neutral statement expressing dissatisfaction that our needs aren’t being met by our environment
This isn’t my field, but I remember a lot of these convos during Covid about the parallels of zoochosis and what people were feeling at the time, seems similar to the original discussion
Just thought it was interesting and semi-related
Even beyond the weird metaphysical and iusnaturalist implications, this train of thought is how you end up with people drinking raw water and eating just boiled meat. We weren’t “made” to seek out community any more than we were “made” to not have antibiotics or die from appendicitis.
You lost me here sorry, dunno how we got to raw milk or appendicitis. Obviously these are bad things, but I don’t think we were trying to connect every societal ill to this hot take on twitter.
Stop it.
didn’t know I was doing anything sorry bro 😭
Yeah, sure. It’s not that I care that much about it, it’s just a pet peeve of mine.
There’s this overlap between conservative, traditionalist takes on how things are “meant” to work, as per some intended design and a new-agey, lovey-dovey take on the same thing diguised as progressivism that hides the same restricting, prescriptive attitudes behind a façade of ecologism or pseudoscience.
I find it annoying. Can’t help it. Don’t really want to, either.
Incidentally Dr. Wilkins there is a ringing all the alarms on that front so badly I want to go find a firehose.
You’re so right on that overlap. It’s incredible how this alt-right propaganda machine has like colonized so many ideas into itself. I don’t blame you for having that habit, it’s fucking everywhere and it’s infuriating.
Also I can def see that about Dr Wilkins, I just thought the concepts were interesting but definitely that’s one of the, not maybe a fallacy but some kind of slope to those ideas
I have a routine day job and a part time night job which I do from home on contract basis. I had vacation from my day job last week, because I have a sweet union job and get loads of vacation so some of it is just hanging out at home, but it’s AMAZING how job 2 expands to fill all that time, as well as every errand thing I have no time for, like haircuts. And my dork assed loser ex I still have to live with is like “well you can get these things done while you’re off”. I’m never off. Never ever.
Is it really that crazy to think you might have more time to do things when on vacation from your day job?
It is actually. The amount I work is insane.
You honestly sound bitter
Why shouldn’t I be? I’ve worked at least 60 hours a week for 20 years, while he sits on his ass and watches hours of TV.
I do “productive vacations” mostly too, but sometimes you need a real break. I’m not even talking about going anywhere, but giving yourself time to just laze about and read and make meals and just do basic tidying, or whatever.
I don’t even have a paying job right now, but I can’t wait until I do, so I can take a week off to actually relax.
You might not need that, but I do.
Ugh that sucks. Is it not an option to drop that additional responsibility? Just say you can’t because of “prior obligations” (taking care of yourself)?
I find empathetic people are often the worst at letting things break so they can have one.
Not that I fully know your situation, so pardon my perscriptivising.
No, unfortunately I need the money, and my ex is a bad situation that I have to grey rock through.
