Patriotism isn’t a good thing at all.
Both are tribalism of different levels of intensity. Our brains are predisposed for us-them mentality, some stronger than others, some can leave it behind others never will. It’s also the most exploitable feeling in the history of our species, with fear may be the close contender.
Obviously a government embracing tribalism leads to horrid shit (everyone without an armband knows it) BUT ignoring it completely allows something else snake its way into that void. If you’re lucky its something vegetarian like football hooliganism, if you-re not – pan-nationalism, religious zealotry, whatever the 4chan incel shit is, people who can’t or won’t leave tribal mentality will find a dirt to roll in.
IMHO it is worth considering implementing a civic religion a-la french republicanism. Yes it can be a gateway to nationalism, but it also lets tribal minded people wave their flags and “guard the civic values” or whatever while the rest of us continue our lives in peace. As a bonus it improves civic participation and if you’re attacked – well there’s already something for you to rally around.
fuck nationalism patriotism all that shit.
Simp for community, not a heirarchical country you were taught to fall in love with.
Community can suck too. Fuck collectivism. “Simp” for those individuals (actually, more accurately, for the good acts) who deserve it, and not a single person/act more.
K, build your own roads and public institutions then.
That’s what a country is, it’s a community but on a bigger scale.
It’s false and self serving to say all the good parts are patriotism and that’s what I do but all the bad parts are nationalism and that’s what they do.
All nation states are murderous vermin undeserving of respect. Holding any identity strongly - national, religious or ideological - can turn you into a destructive rube.
A national identity based on common positive beliefs helps to keep these beliefs viable. Leaving group identity to the right is one of the reasons why it is so strong
I can be proud that my country has free health care and still critize that the rich get better treatment
I can be proud that my country has made it clear in its constitution that every life style and religion are the same before the state while critzing that the reality dies not adhere to this ideal
While identity is differential to other groups it does not need to be excluding. I.e. everybody who shares our ideals is welcome here instead of people born here are superior to others
And you can have the identity not be in difference to an other people but e.g. another time. I am proud that germany is harder for the nazis to take over than the Weimar Republic was.
People want identity and a feeling of community and seeing that as something inherently negative os stupid and dangerously helpful to the right
Yikes. Is this from the “committee to save endangered ideologies”? Which think tank came up with this lol
A long time ago I read some post that stuck with me.
It said that some people love their country the way a child loves their parent. They’re perfect and smart and strong and can beat up your parent. They don’t have any flaws, and can do no wrong. They’re the best ever.
Other people love their country the way an adult loves a peer. They see the potential, the good, but also the flaws. They want what’s best for both of them, even if it’s uncomfortable and difficult. And ultimately, if the relationship becomes abusive, they won’t just take it.
Conservatives often are the first one, but I think they are generally more immature. Fearful, tribal, angry.
Loving your country in the second way can be okay, I think. It can be a vehicle for improvement. People have wanted to improve their living spaces and communities for longer than we’ve had recorded history. It doesn’t have to be toxic or zero-sum.
I wonder what you would define “country” as. If you want to say, “love thy neighbor” then I get you. But if you’re saying “love your government” then it doesn’t really make much sense. You’re not supposed to love the government, that’s not the point of it, that’s not what it’s here for.
And ultimately, if the relationship becomes abusive, they won’t just take it.
That’s where the analogy fails for me. You can’t leave a state unless you enter a new state, a new abusive relationship.
People have wanted to improve their living spaces and communities for longer than we’ve had recorded history.
I get when people are proud of their city or ethnicity or dialect group or religion or football club or what ever. There have always been imagined communities (communities where you don’t know everyone but feel connected due to a shared identity) and that’s what modern nation stated exploit. They creat a shared identity by lumping everything together, diminishing local differences to creat an artificial imagined community based on forced commonalities and destroy the plurality and diversity “home” could be.
Thanks for listening to my TEDtalk
Nationalism is only good when people are fighting colonialism, e.g. palestine or british era India.
“Nationalism is the best defense against invasion” is something fascists and rebellions against empires agree on.
um, no… Americocentric again
Nationalism has to do with pride in a shared cultural identity, whereas Patriotism is pride for one’s country.
in other countries, there are strong cultural ties that bond people together. shared language. a relationship to the land. hundreds if not thousands of years of history. some countries have dozens of such groups.
nationalism is a person from that group taking pride in that identity. patriotism is taking pride in your country as a whole. so for example, you can be proud to be Gujarati, and you can be proud to be Indian.
now, in the United States, there really isn’t a national identity beyond shopping malls and jingoism. so i can see how nationalism is rarely seen positively. all you get of it is nazis and fake irish frat bros.
but, no, really I think patriotism is a far bigger problem than nationalism. one’s language is your flesh and blood, it’s who you are. what the fuck does a country mean to you? the people who lock you up?
Patriotism is just a nice word people invented to be proud of their genocidal and colonialist country without feeling too bad about it.
But you know as well as I, patriotism is a word; and one that generally comes to mean either my country, right or wrong, which is infamous, or my country is always right, which is imbecile.
That’s just wrong, patriotism is subjective. The word means having a sense of pride, support, or devotion to your country. However, this concept can interpreted in wildly different ways by different people. One person could think that patriotism means standing by your country right or wrong, but another person could think that patriotism means criticizing your country when it’s done wrong. Both of these are valid forms of patriotism, it’s just that one is more extreme than the other.
I think one interpretation of the quote that includes the possibility of a patriotism that does not exclude criticizing wrongdoing of your country is that “my country, right or wrong” does not mean “i support everything my country does”, but rather “even if i don’t support some things my country does, i’ll support my country generally”.
Precisely, the quote takes into account the existence of a patriotism able to recognize that a country can be wrong.
Don’t argue with me. Argue with Patrick O’Brien
I mean you quoted him, you clearly endorse his view.
I mean, yeah, but that’s because I read all of his books
You should do that.
Good for you I guess, my criticism of the quote still stands though
If your whole identity is based on the fact you where born at some location on this planet, you really need some self reflection and deprogramming
I was within these borders while I crawled out of a vagina. it’s one of my greatest achievements and I’ll base my personality on that
Patriotism is the little sibling of nationalism, and the boundaries are fluid. I will never understand why people are proud of other people’s accomplishments and make them their own. Or is it because people were shat on somewhere else in the world than everyone else? Makes absolutely no sense.
Is there anything missing from
“Or is it because people were shat on somewhere else in the world than everyone else?”
?
Nationalism has become such a no go that nationalists will call themselves patriots but it’s just a euphemism for the first
Always has been.
👨🚀🔫🏳️
Americans act like the two are separate things so they can continue to be brainwashed into being good little America #1 oorah’s.
Grow up, be proud of your own achievements, hard-work, and yourself not a fucking nation state like a little proto-fash.
Mate, I live in europe and patriotism is here, the hell you smokin?
I didn’t say there wasn’t patriotism in Europe. I said trying to paint the two as separate things is the Seppo take.
Your point on the fact you didn’t say it didn’t exist. But these are two separate things even in Europe.
Nah, fuck that. Patriotism is just nationalism light.
I have to disagree. Without at least a little pride or the want to have pride in where we come from, what incentive is there to do things like cataloging history or preserving cultures and languages. I don’t think all cultures are objectively or subjectively good by any stretch, but their information, knowledge, and ritual is 100% worth cataloging and knowing, if anything just to preserve knowledge of what not to do.
For example, the confederate south. Is it worth keeping up monuments and statues honoring the traitors? Absolutely not. Is it worth keeping knowledge of what happened so that we might not repeat it? Absolutely. Without a healthy amount of patriotism, in this case the hope that where we come from can improve, why wouldn’t we just wipe away that history and pretend it didn’t happen? That’s a major line where it switches from patriotism to nationalism.
But mostly it’s just the want to improve where you’re from that’s why I believe you should have a healthy amount of patriotism. Without it, why bother doing anything at all, from protesting to
riotingviolent encouragement to do something different.Anyways, hope that what my overly caffeinated brain wrote down makes sense
You do not need to love your nation-state to want to preserve history or learn from the past.
That is such warped logic.
I really don’t get your point. I consider myself to be an anarcho-communist and will start a volunteer year at an archaeoligical institution to see if I want to study it at a university.
You don’t need to love your country to learn about it.
Why pride if interest is more than enough? A nation is inherently an invention. It creates a story why it came to be and why all the different cultures in it’s territory are now “the people”. I don’t think you need that to be happy about where you live and/or to improve. It is also not needed to document history.
Exactly. It’s the gateway drug to fascism.
Fuck it all.
Is there anything that you don’t think is a gateway drug to fascism?
Interesting. Color me skeptical, but I’ve been around for a minute, and that smacks of bait.
It’s not bait, it’s criticism
No, it simply is not.
It’s a loaded, low-effort question that puts the onus on your target and required nothing from you at all.
That said, if it wasn’t in bad faith, I welcome you to try again. Otherwise, I can easily find better things to do than waste more time on trolls, friendo.
You can dance in circles all you want, it’s not going to change anything. You’re taking concepts that have nothing to do with fascism and attributing them to it regardless. Saying patriotism a gateway drug to fascism is like saying “community is a gateway drug to cults.” Just because both involve belonging and loyalty doesn’t mean one inevitably leads to the other. It’s the distortion, not the foundation, that creates danger.
Trying to twist something that’s normal, healthy, and even necessary like patriotism or community into something toxic, shows that you’re disingenuous, which is ironic considering your spiel here. Just because you say something is poisonous that doesn’t that it is.
Oh, you silly frothy fuckwit. I simply called out your bullshit “question”, and was clearly accurate in presuming it was, in fact, bait.
Your attempts to weaponize the word salad sloshing around in that soggy head aren’t doing you any favors, so how about this:
Read a fucking book that isn’t Mein Kampf.
Don’t forget to breathe. (optional)
Bye, Felisha.
BTW, for those playing along at home, “community” is essential. “Patriotism” is not. Don’t suffer these idiots. Call them out, every time. You are not alone, friends. We got this. ✊🏼
I had a pledge that I would buy a Union-made American Flag and plant it firmly in my lawn if two things happened (1) Harris was elected President, and (2) Trump served any prison time.
Nationalism fuels fascism, but I think patriotism can be a healthy pride; sort of like how one distinguishes confidence from arrogance.
Ultimately patriotism is a neutral term and is decided upon whether you agree with your national identity in both where your nation is, and where it is heading. I naturally don’t agree with either at present, and so I’m not patriotic. Some are patriotic for the wrong reasons. If we get back to our roots, then I will perhaps one day have pride in being an American again.
if we get back to our roots
You mean racism, sexism, and exploitation? Because that’s what our roots are.
O, let America be America again— The land that never has been yet— And yet must be—the land where every man is free.
deleted by creator
Someone tried to wipe out the Jews, so nationalism for a Jewish state must be healthy too, right?
Or maybe nationalism is just a tool to manipulate people and make them ignorant of the problems in a government. Fatah is incredibly corrupt but you don’t seem to care about that because you believe in some nationalistic narrative. There would already be a Palestinian state if there was strong leadership. But using narratives about historical humiliation, misogyny, hatred of other ethnic groups, reclaiming a glorious past (all hallmarks of fascist manipulation) means people are less likely to demand better leadership and corrupt governments can persist.
I think genuine patriotism is a bit more than what you describe. Your lack of pride in being an American is motivated by a desire for an America that is worthy of pride. To me that is still patriotism in essence even if outwardly it seems like the opposite.
I had a pledge that I would buy a Union-made American Flag and plant it firmly in my lawn if two things happened (1) Harris was elected President, and (2) Trump served any prison time.
This is so god damn funny. A hexbear tagline if I’ve ever seen one.
And nationalism is bad, because? Nationalism when taken to the extreme can be bad because it’s extreme, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with nationalism.
Nationalism when taken to the extreme can be bad because it’s extreme, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with nationalism.
What you just described, this “mild nationalism?” There’s a word for that: patriotism. Nationalism is extreme patriotism.
Nationalism: an ideology that elevates one nation or nationality above all others and that places primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations, nationalities, or supranational groups
-Merriam-Webster Dictionary
And when nationalism becomes even more extreme, it becomes chauvinism or jingoism.
Chauvinism: undue partiality or attachment to a group or place to which one belongs or has belonged; excessive or blind patriotism; an attitude of superiority toward members of the opposite sex
Jingoism: extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy
When Hitler promised to build a wall around Germany to keep immigrants from diluting German culture during his campaign, that was nationalism. American isolationists were/are nationalists.
The Republican Party in the 90s and 2000s was a nationalist party bordering on chauvinism. The party of Trump is a jingoist party that hits every definition of chauvinism at the same time.
What you just described, this “mild nationalism?” There’s a word for that: patriotism. Nationalism is extreme patriotism
This is just false. Nationalism is just the idea that a nation should be sovereign. The Meriam Webster definition you cited is just a contemporary definition, the original definition is the second one listed here:
: support for and promotion of the political independence or self-determination of a nation or people
Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism
Nationalism isn’t a more extreme version of patriotism. Nationalism describes an ideology while patriotism describes a particular set of emotions. The two could overlap, but they’re not the same thing at different points of a spectrum.
If you cannot see, why the ideology that brought us both World Wars, Russias war against Ukraine and so many more modern conflicts, was the base of colonialism and neo-colonialism, imperialism, 20th century slavery, fascism, zionism and that let us buold borders where thousands die every year, you are lost.
This is just a piss poor understanding of history, nationalism, and geopolitics.
Let’s take the Ukraine war as an example. Russia is not a nation state, it’s an empire. Empires are usually multiethnic, hierarchical, and expansionist, ruling over diverse peoples through centralized authority and often unequal legal or political status. Ukraine, on the other hand, is a nation state because it’s organized around a shared national identity that is defined by common language, culture, or ethnicity, and it treats all of its citizens as equals under the law. This war is basically between Russian imperialists who want to expand the empire and Ukrainian nationalists who want to defend their nation.
Using your flawed logic, Ukrainians are bad people because they believe in and are actively defending an ideology that you falsely attribute to everything bad to has ever happened in the world and in history. That’s just nonsense.
Your example is very bad, to be honest. Both Russia and Ukraine are states. All states today claim to be nations. Every nation is a social construct, made by inventing or at least warping history to explain the creation of a nation. States tend to equalize the people living on it’s territory by introducing things like law, language, traditions or education. And they are actively trying to tell this story of “the people” to legitimate themselves. But the people are not the same. Look at your own country, wherever you live. There are always vast differences between places in different cardinal directions or at the borders vs. inland, between richer and poorer regions or between urban and rural areas. In Russia, that becomes very obvious, but it is the same everywhere.
Nationalism is the root of everything, I described. Nothing of that would have existed without a strong nationalist movement. Sure, there can be more or less extreme forms of nationalism, but this ideoligy is always dividing territory and people into the inside and outside.
Every Ukrainian fighting against Russian imperialism is fine. But at the end, I hope there are more people left to rebuilt the country, who fought for their freedom and not for some fucking glorious Father/Motherland.
there’s nothing inherently wrong with fascism
Can I ask what your definition of “fascism” is?
That was a typo, I meant to say nationalism. There’s definitely a lot inherently wrong with fascism
Hell of a typo, but fair enough.
I was thinking about another comment I wanted to reply to while typing that one and my brain just mixed the two.
So I can’t be proud of being from my country? City? Neighborhood? I don’t think it’s so black and white unless you have another term to describe being happy about where you’re from.
Just be happy about where you are from.
How do you appropriately label that feeling of being happy you are where you are from?
I describe the Feeling as “happiness” or “fondness”, never proudness. The place I identify with differs depending on the context. It is mostly my city, the part of my country or the part of Europe, I live in.
