No worries! I enjoyed the conversation even if you don’t find the time or energy! I appreciate your willingness to make a discussion out of it, despite my sometimes foul-mouthed and aggressive posture, lmao.
Genocide is a hard line for me. I did the best I could but regardless, Trump got in. I accept some small measure of blame in this"
Would that be “fine”? Heavy quote-unquote there. Not that you agree, they should have voted blue, I get that.
In essence, is this primarily an accountability thing? Another commentator in this post was complaining that everyone is blaming everyone else, and well… “yeah, did you read the post?”
But, it got me thinking. We’ve both said a lot, but as I kept coming back to “I blame leadership for everything, always”, you kept coming to “obviously, but don’t the (non)voters have some culpabilty too?” And well yeah
The blame game as I see it is: R leadership > D leadership > 3rd party Leadership > R Voters > | The debated order of dem voters for supporting supporters of genocide (weasel wordy “supporting genocide” feels more hostile than I’m intending), 3rd party voters for not supporting R’s main rivals, and non-voters for not showing D leadership their vote is attainable but for the correct platform.
Perhaps ‘R voters’ go before ‘D leadership’, I’ve been pretty consistent that I blame those with lots power over those with little bits of power, not really the crux of the argument to follow so I’ll concede it if you want to push back.
There’s so many on the left of the pipe to be blaming, by the time at at the pipe I’m at “really negligible” amounts of blame. Perhaps, it’s because we all agree that R/D leadership et al are all cunts, there’s nothing to debate. But the order on the right is prime mudslinging territory as we’re mostly all in there, non-US Citizens excluded. I’d prefer the ‘are R voters more to blame than D leadership’ debate though, if we must have one.
I thought ‘is this a US individualism thing?’, not that the UK isn’t individualistic, just the US is famously extremely so. But, there’s plenty of US peeps blaming D leadership for all their woes. Also, you’ve explained to me why you blame the individual voters. So it was definitely an arrogant over generalisation on my part.
I dunno the ‘why’ of the divide. Like, I think I’ve got the ‘what’. Everyone agrees genocide is bad, that’s not the ‘what’ of the divide, though people present it as the thing. Everyone (here at least) agrees trans rights are human rights, gay rights are human rights, concentration camps are bad… All of these are agreed upon. It’s just the ‘blame’. Who gets it, and how much… I don’t think that it is agreeable. Worse, I don’t think it’s productive, I called it ‘divisive’ I think. I think I stand by that.
Perhaps, I’m way off and it is the priorities: republicans are the greatest threat to the country. Genocide is bad, like unsupportingly bad. What do you care about more discuss fight. But the blame thing keeps coming back around and around. Even my parent comment of punch up not down was “you’re blaming the wrong people” or at least “you’re emphasising blame on the wrong people.”
It’s tricky. Even then understanding the conflict may not get us closer to a resolution. In a “I don’t agree, I can’t agree but I understand and respect your decision.”
Perhaps it’s too fraught:
I don’t think a vegan would ever consider me, an omnivore with many leather products, to be on the same ‘team’ as them. Though I think both they and I care about animal welfare, they don’t think I care about animal welfare at all. The meat industry is inherently cruel. The nuance of levels of cruelty merely serves my own conscience. The animals still suffer for my enjoyment.
That wasn’t quick at all. Sorry to unload on you. Actual reply tomorrow, well today. But that’s where I’m at.
I’ll try reply to all these points in the other thread, but later it’s 00:05.
No worries! I enjoyed the conversation even if you don’t find the time or energy! I appreciate your willingness to make a discussion out of it, despite my sometimes foul-mouthed and aggressive posture, lmao.
Just real quick. If someone were to say:
Would that be “fine”? Heavy quote-unquote there. Not that you agree, they should have voted blue, I get that.
In essence, is this primarily an accountability thing? Another commentator in this post was complaining that everyone is blaming everyone else, and well… “yeah, did you read the post?”
But, it got me thinking. We’ve both said a lot, but as I kept coming back to “I blame leadership for everything, always”, you kept coming to “obviously, but don’t the (non)voters have some culpabilty too?” And well yeah
The blame game as I see it is: R leadership > D leadership > 3rd party Leadership > R Voters > | The debated order of dem voters for supporting supporters of genocide (weasel wordy “supporting genocide” feels more hostile than I’m intending), 3rd party voters for not supporting R’s main rivals, and non-voters for not showing D leadership their vote is attainable but for the correct platform.
Perhaps ‘R voters’ go before ‘D leadership’, I’ve been pretty consistent that I blame those with lots power over those with little bits of power, not really the crux of the argument to follow so I’ll concede it if you want to push back.
There’s so many on the left of the pipe to be blaming, by the time at at the pipe I’m at “really negligible” amounts of blame. Perhaps, it’s because we all agree that R/D leadership et al are all cunts, there’s nothing to debate. But the order on the right is prime mudslinging territory as we’re mostly all in there, non-US Citizens excluded. I’d prefer the ‘are R voters more to blame than D leadership’ debate though, if we must have one.
I thought ‘is this a US individualism thing?’, not that the UK isn’t individualistic, just the US is famously extremely so. But, there’s plenty of US peeps blaming D leadership for all their woes. Also, you’ve explained to me why you blame the individual voters. So it was definitely an arrogant over generalisation on my part.
I dunno the ‘why’ of the divide. Like, I think I’ve got the ‘what’. Everyone agrees genocide is bad, that’s not the ‘what’ of the divide, though people present it as the thing. Everyone (here at least) agrees trans rights are human rights, gay rights are human rights, concentration camps are bad… All of these are agreed upon. It’s just the ‘blame’. Who gets it, and how much… I don’t think that it is agreeable. Worse, I don’t think it’s productive, I called it ‘divisive’ I think. I think I stand by that.
Perhaps, I’m way off and it is the priorities: republicans are the greatest threat to the country. Genocide is bad, like unsupportingly bad. What do you care about more
discussfight. But the blame thing keeps coming back around and around. Even my parent comment of punch up not down was “you’re blaming the wrong people” or at least “you’re emphasising blame on the wrong people.”It’s tricky. Even then understanding the conflict may not get us closer to a resolution. In a “I don’t agree, I can’t agree but I understand and respect your decision.”
Perhaps it’s too fraught:
I don’t think a vegan would ever consider me, an omnivore with many leather products, to be on the same ‘team’ as them. Though I think both they and I care about animal welfare, they don’t think I care about animal welfare at all. The meat industry is inherently cruel. The nuance of levels of cruelty merely serves my own conscience. The animals still suffer for my enjoyment.
That wasn’t quick at all. Sorry to unload on you. Actual reply tomorrow, well today. But that’s where I’m at.