• JackbyDev
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    154 days ago

    I don’t really see people use the term mansplain to mean anything other than men being condescending. While I do see it used “incorrectly” sometimes, I have no reason to believe the person using it doesn’t believe the man is being rude/condescending. Just because I personally believe something isn’t condescending doesn’t mean the person doesn’t view it like that (and whether the person is actually being condescending is a totally different topic). I see people call people assholes when they’re not being assholes. I see people call people jerks when they’re not being jerks. It’s not really a new thing.

    In short, I don’t believe anyone is using the term differently, it could be that you don’t think the man doing the explaining is being condescending but they do, or it could be that the term really is used differently and I just haven’t personally seen it (always a possibility).

    • @[email protected]
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      144 days ago

      I have no reason to believe the person using it doesn’t believe the man is being rude/condescending. Just because I personally believe something isn’t condescending doesn’t mean the person doesn’t view it like that (and whether the person is actually being condescending is a totally different topic).

      There are a lot of insecure people in the world, to whom any explanation feels condescending. Are we really suggesting that the perception of the recipient is more valid than the intent of the subject? That’s kinda the whole problem.

      Is it mansplaining for a man who’s been a physical trainer for years to explain to a woman that she’s about to seriously hurt herself with improper form? He knows what he’s talking about, she’s definitely going to hurt herself, his tone is polite but urgent, and the intent is sincerely to help her avoid that. Is her feeling that he’s being condescending by criticizing her form enough to make him a mansplainer?

      it could be that the term really is used differently and I just haven’t personally seen it (always a possibility).

      I have personally seen it. I’ve personally been accused of mansplaining when correcting someone on something I know a great deal about, and immediately after watching them do it very wrong. Honestly I’ve probably seen it used defensively to delegitimize the man in question much more often than I’ve seen actual mansplaining.

      I’m not saying it’s not a real phenomenon, but it seems more often to be a term used to shut down legitimate communication.

      • @[email protected]
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        73 days ago

        I have personally seen it. I’ve personally been accused of mansplaining when correcting someone on something I know a great deal about, and immediately after watching them do it very wrong. Honestly I’ve probably seen it used defensively to delegitimize the man in question much more often than I’ve seen actual mansplaining.

        I’m not saying it’s not a real phenomenon, but it seems more often to be a term used to shut down legitimate communication.

        I’ve seen this one, too. There are women out there who are using this concept (and the concept of “old white men”) to shield themselves from every form of critique, even if they were totally wrong. There are men out there who are behaving idiotic, but there are also women out there who are behaving idiotic. And I feel that the concept of mansplaining is getting abused by idiotic women and is therefore used against “innocent” men who really want to help. Esp. in the internet the concept is often used as “you are not allowed to say anything because you are a man” and that totally is not helping anyone. Women are getting frustrated because of course the other side will react negatively when you are communicating like that and men totally will think that those feminists are really big idiots.

      • @[email protected]
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        63 days ago

        Your observation is valid, but it would be fair to admit that as you’re not on the receiving end, you might not notice all the occasions women get real condescending mansplaining because it doesn’t touch you personally as much.

      • JackbyDev
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        44 days ago

        Are we really suggesting that the perception of the recipient is more valid than the intent of the subject? That’s kinda the whole problem.

        When the topic is “do people use the term mansplaining to describe men explaining something without being condescending”, yes.

        Is it mansplaining for a man who’s been a physical trainer for years to explain to a woman that she’s about to seriously hurt herself with improper form?

        This is why I said

        and whether the person is actually being condescending is a totally different topic

        For the topic we’re talking about (do people use the term to describe men explaining things while not being condescending), if the woman in that example thought the man was being condescending and thought she knew better, she’d be using the term properly as you describe it should be used. That’s the point I’m trying to illustrate. In her mind she views the man as being condescending. In her mind she believes she knows better. So she’s using the term correctly.

        Now to be clear, I’m not saying it is mansplaining. Nor am I saying the man shouldn’t be doing it in that scenario.

        • @[email protected]
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          104 days ago

          In her mind she views the man as being condescending. In her mind she believes she knows better. So she’s using the term correctly.

          Now to be clear, I’m not saying it is mansplaining. Nor am I saying the man shouldn’t be doing it in that scenario.

          That’s my point. It’s being used far too liberally. I’m not saying they don’t feel justified in using it, I’m saying that the standard being applied is far too low, and it shuts down legitimate communication. It has the built in defense of delegitimizing any attempts at clarification, because obviously the mansplainer is just mansplaining how he isn’t mansplaining.

          To go back to my analogy:

          Would you likewise agree that a man would be justified in accusing a woman, with an accurate and valid complaint, of womancomplaining simply because he felt she was exaggerating? And couldn’t he then go on to deflect any clarification she offers as further womancomplaining?

          I’m not saying these people don’t feel like they’re using their terms correctly, I’m saying that it shuts down communication and accelerates the weaponization of accusation. It contributes to the gender divide, and has certainly helped to nudge men towards man-o-sphere radicalization.

          • Oascany
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            54 days ago

            I don’t mean to address any of your points with this reply, I just want to point out that men regularly accuse women of “womancomplaining” or “being too emotional” or “being hysterical.” A lot of women were lobotomised because of this kind of thing.

          • JackbyDev
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            44 days ago

            You say that’s your point but,

            Would you likewise agree that a man would be justified in accusing a woman, with an accurate and valid complaint, of womancomplaining simply because he felt she was exaggerating?

            I’ve made it extremely clear, multiple times that I am not commenting on whether I believe anything to actually be mansplaining. By your definition of how people should use your hypothetical example term, the person in your example would be using it correctly.

            I haven’t been discussing whether I think it’s a good term or bad term, that’s a different and unrelated topic, I am only talking about whether people “use it differently” now than they used to.

            • @[email protected]
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              64 days ago

              We agree that “mansplaining” means “When a man condescendingly explains a subject to a woman who is an expert in that subject, because he assumes being a woman makes her ignorant”.

              I’m saying “condescendingly” is defined by intent, even subconscious.

              You’re saying “condescendingly” is defined by perception, even inaccurate.

              When I say it is being used differently, I’m talking about the shift from my definition of “condescendingly” to yours.

              Although, there’s also the “who is an expert in that subject” modifier on “woman” that has definitely been dropped in contemporary usage as well.

              • JackbyDev
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                4 days ago

                No, I’m not saying that. I’m saying there is not some objective way for someone to know someone else’s intentions. Say you believe something is a fire hazard. You say “that’s a fire hazard.” Turns out it’s not a fire hazard. Have you used the term fire hazard differently than everyone else? No, of course not! You still used it to describe something you believed was a fire hazard, you were just mistaken about whether it was a fire hazard.

                I’m saying people who use the term mansplain aren’t using it differently, they actually do believe the person talking to them is condescending.

                You’re trying to make this about whether someone is correct in their assessment of whether someone is being condescending. I’ve said it multiple times that I’m talking about how people use it and not whether people agree that they’re correct.

                If a woman says a man mansplained something and she believes the man is being condescending, then she’s using the same definition you just said we agree on. Full stop. I don’t believe women use the term differently. It does not matter what the intentions were. I am also not saying she would be right or wrong. Because all I have been talking about is how the term is used.

                If you hear a woman say something was mansplaining but you don’t agree that the man was being condescending, that’s okay, there’s nothing inherently wrong with that. But it doesn’t mean she was using the term to describe something that wasn’t condescending. It just means you disagree that the man was being condescending.

                • @[email protected]
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                  24 days ago

                  I’m saying people who use the term mansplain aren’t using it differently, they actually do believe the person talking to them is condescending.

                  Which brings us back to the “expert” angle which has been completely dropped. That’s the mechanism that lends legitimacy to the accusation of condescension. That’s what elevates a vague perception of condescension to an accurate assessment. Otherwise you’re just flinging sexist slurs based on your immediate personal vibes.

                  That’s the change in meaning.

                  • JackbyDev
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                    24 days ago

                    I feel like you’re just not paying attention to what I’m saying. I don’t know how to make it more clear. The “immediate personal vibes” is really misunderstanding me. You seem to be taking what I’m saying as someone making a quick, possibly inaccurate snap judgement. That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying people only have their own perception. They aren’t telepathic. You seem to want to differentiate between people’s opinions and what is objective. I’m telling you there is no objective way to interpret a social situation and that obviously people use their own interpretation of a situation when talking.

                    Re: expert, again, it doesn’t really matter. If the woman believes she is correct about something she believes is obvious and that the man explaining it is being condescending, she’s using the term mansplaining correctly as you described it should be used. If the woman is factually incorrec, not an expert, and the man was being polite then she still used the term the way you said people should use it.

    • @[email protected]
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      13 days ago

      Since the gendered nature of the term has been brought up, your comment makes me think of the word “bitch” compared to asshole or jerk. All three terms get used entirely subjectively, but I think most reasonable people agree that “bitch” is at least a bit more crass and tasteless due to its more gendered nature. I know we’ll never get rid of ugly words when using words to hurt and offend, but I think it does show that it matters if a term is gendered. So maybe when people are offended by a term being gendered, we should listen no matter their gender. And I think people who like using those terms, especially when told they’re hurtful, should have a long think about what feelings they get from using them.

      It just made me think so I wanted to write that out.