I guess this is a correct community to post about this? If not let me know.
My company finally is asking politely that we have to go to the office twice a week. Or else. That else is not yet defined, but obviously there will be consequences of not going to the office.
I have been at this company for 15 years, from junior dev to manager.
I did a daily commute of about 40 mins in the morning, 40 to an hour back, never gave a second thought about that. That was normal.
After pandemics, I found out all I have been missing on my kids growing up. My second kid is much more attached to me since she saw me daily, even if I was in my office room at home, she got to see me more often.
So I found out how much my life improved by doing working at home. Hell in the middle of this sentence my kid just showed me some thing she drew.
I stood my ground, I basically politely told HR that I am not going back. And actually my reasons make sense, I work with people in other countries, they don’t care where I am.
And it will affect my performance, driving to the office, moving all my equipment, and having people around trying to talk to me will take a toll.
So yeah, I am polishing my resume, because there is no turning back now. I will be shunted if I ask for a raise, they can easily say “hey but you are not coming to the office, how come you want a raise if you are not part of the team”, never mind that I do everything that is expected and more.
Just off my chest I guess, and anxious about the future.
You should definitely stop doing “more”, also.
That was a figure of speech haha.
I am old and experienced enough to work exactly the hours I am paid. I give my 100% on those hours, I am all in, and I always push back when they try to sneak a meet after my EOD, try to get some extra hours from me and so on.
I’m on the otherside of the coin. I was remote like many during covid then recently took a job where I have a 40min commute 2 days a week. I wasn’t happy about that to start and thought I wanted full time remote. I’m 4 months in now and I love it. To me it feels like the best of both worlds. My drive isn’t a hard 40 min and I get through podcasts and calls to friends/family. I just bring my laptop and dock at home or office which is easy. It has been great seeing and meeting people. I try to structure my days so I get meetings in person and focus work done on WFH days. Not for everyone but some, like me, might be surprised that they like a blend more than they think.
Remote definitely is not for everyone! I would just like the freedom to come and go as I choose, but I guess that’s not economical from an overhead perspective.
I found it pretty economical. I’ve run drop-in visitor desks for my teams, and the math is pretty simple. Fewer desks costs the organization less money.
I suspect that the economics troubles are when the boss’ brother-in-law’s office rental agreement doesn’t get renewed next year.
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I don’t think there are plenty of remote jobs anymore. They’re highly sought after.
You and I have had very different experiences. My organization has grown my 5x in the last few years and all added positions were fully remote.
But I agree that remote roles are highly sought after. I think there’s a correlation effect: Excellent dev managers create fully remote teams, and word gets out that they’re excellent to work for.
This will, sadly, settle out when the shitty managers catch on.
On a more personal note, hang in there. You can be top tier talent and still walk into a desirable job interview right after a unicorn candidate for that role.
Can confirm - have been looking for four months for remote roles. I’ve done maybe 20 or so interviews to various stages, but no offers.
The industry in general is bleak right now.
But it is possible; probably easier with 15 YoE.
What kinds of positions are you applying to?
mid-level (5ish YoE) SWE and MLE/ MLOps roles
More annoyingly, there have been so many baits and switches/ playing fast and loose with the term remote.
- Job description title: “remote”
- Job description body: “remote 2 days a week!”
or, halfway through the process
“Sorry, initial job description has been filled. Here’s another role, though, which is incidentally equivalent to the old one but the job description now says hybrid!! :) :)”
Ah nice you’re on a good track (I can’t do AI/ML).
I feel you on that bait and switch, these recruiters are savages and companies desperate.
Is that good lol Tbh I’m trying to get away from it and become a backend generalist because I’m sick of the (1) ML hype that leads to absurdly unrealistic / unsatisfiable requirements and (2) the need to work with internal customers (data science people, etc)
Yes, I am old enough to know that you are selling your expertise and time.
The company obviously profits a lot more that what you receive.
Also I always cringe with this “family” stuff on any company, that is just a way to manipulate the employees into creating a relationship with the company.
“We’re family!.. If you count those toxic families that are governed by raging narcissists. You wanted vindictive feuds, useless arbitrary rules, power-tripping, victim blaming, a cult of personality over management, and extreme punitive actions, right? Right?!”
My last place had a strong cult vibe to it. That was bad enough. But the part that really tripped me out were the overly-bubbly ‘glee squad’ employees who spent half their time fishing over how life changing our employer was, and the other half literally crying over… how life changing our employer was. It was incredibly cringe. I felt embarrassed for them.
I once worked at one of those “family” places.
One day the boss told me he didn’t think I was particularly dedicated to that place.
I said “No shit. That’s why you have to pay me to show up every day.”
That put an end to that line of reasoning.
I’ve seen in tech. But the great majority of those are either US or EU only. Outside of that, it’s pretty bleak.
I’m glad you were able to recognize the quality of life imprisonment that work from home brought you and the impact it has on you and your family. With more and more ppl back in the office, WFH has shifted from a safety necessity to another ‘perk’ that companies can offer, like 401k matching or a 4/10 work schedule.
You are doing the right thing by standing your ground, you are indicating to them that they are in danger of losing talent if they do not continue to offer this competitive advantage to their employees, which should be a no-brainer with the work environment you described.
This should not preclude you from raises imo, and you are smart to be preparing your resume and looking for better opportunities. It is always smart to keep your options open. Good luck!
You’ve made your case and stood your ground, and until it’s an official policy and nothing more than “guidance” you’ll probably be ok, honestly.
A few months back I was offered a promotion and a fancy new job title, with the caveat that I would need to move to another country. I countered with more or less the same argument as you, “I’ve been doing this from home for years and everyone I work with is remote anyways; I’m not moving” and was met with a “hmm…fair enough”.
I am looking for work and when I give salary requirements its for wfh. I will do in office but its a 20% premium or 4% per day required in the office. In addition I work from home from start time to end time except when I take lunch. I work from the office from when I get there to end time and for lunch which is something delays me oh well I have to deal with whats around and when talking with folks in the office or whatever.
My in-person premium is currently 300%.
But I’ll look amazing* while I show up to collect my massive pile of money, should anyone take me up on it.
*Does Apple even make cars and shirts and dress shoes yet? I’ll have to hire a fashion consultant, if it ever comes up.
Yeah. Im definitely the cheaper whore between you and me.
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Fuck yes! I did the same thing at my last job. Similar setup, geographically dispersed even before the pandemic. Got everything up in the cloud, we were rocking it. Early releases, dev always ahead of schedule. They tried to pull me in the office 2 days a week last year so I fucking quit!
New job I still have to battle every now and then to stay remote but they know I’ll bounce the second they try to make me come in. Don’t get me wrong I’ll come in for a meeting or something if it’s important enough, and news flash… it rarely is!
Keep it up man, push back on that office work bullshit. Stay remote, spend the time with family. Fuck office culture, it’s irrelevant.
I guess it depends how much you like your job/employer. It’s clear that the added time with your family is a really high value, which I can strongly relate to.
If you really want to keep the job, maybe when it really comes down to it, you could compromise and do one day /week.
We need to start a remote workers union.
This might not be an answer but my worked also requested us come in 2 days a week. So I ride my bike in around 11am and back home about 1pm. WFH the rest of the hours. I’m all about malicious compliance.
I do this too and I actually like this arrangement. I can take a break in the day and bike or walk into work. Hang out for an hour or two and leave. That’s really the gain of going back to office; hanging out with your colleagues. I’m more productive at home.
Malicious compliance 😂
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Sounds like my employer. Vague messaging from the CEO a few months back about going into the office, but that it was up to managers to determine what was best for their teams.
Now, the CEO is chiding people for not being in the office at least twice a week. Luckily I’m in a market with a strong presence for my area, but those hotspots are being told to come in at least twice a week.
As a manager, I did have this “up to managers what is best for your teams” conversation with my remote team.
“Can y’all still remotely do the job you’ve done for several years remotely?”
“Uh. Yeah. Are you going to ask us to come back to the office?”
“Hiring new developers after several of you give notice would be a huge waste of my professional time, so no.”
“I guess we told you.”
“I’m glad we sorted that out.”
Things you never hear people say ‘I’m looking forward to a long commute and spending all day in an office’.
Why is this even a discussion point?Working from home has been such a game changer. It’s better for family life, it’s better for the environment, it’s efficient. Much of the anxiety around homeworking is the suspicion that people work less. The fact is, if your job sucks you are not doing it wherever it happens to be.
What you will hear people say is that they’re happy to get out of the house, and see people in real life instead of through a screen.
I was negotiating the number of days down to one, coming from 3 in the proposal, for my entire team until 1 guy said he didn’t mind coming in more often. During the negotiations. With the boss. They clocked it at 2 days. They kept circling back to the guy saying there clearly are people who want to come in more often. I coulda slapped him then and there. WFH is optional. He could have come in any day he wanted, 5 days or whatever, he just didn’t want to sit there alone.
Oh, if he were on my team, “alone” would be the least of his worries.
Exactly. We want to decide when it is appropriate to attend the office. I personally dislike video con meetings, there is something about being in the company of people that improves communication and promotes a sense of well-being. On the other hand, the price of meeting people in person is feeling completely exhausted from waking at 5am and coming home at 8pm. That’s sustainable and actually desirable one day a week but there’s no way I could do this every day without making myself miserable. I count my blessings that I’m in a position to make this choice.
My commute to work is a 8 minute walk. I used to drive 30 minutes one way and was so exhausted after driving I would fall asleep after getting home.
Removing the commute time and mental demand from driving and replacing it with a walk home where I can unpack my thoughts has massively improved my personal life. I’m really lucky, the pay is bad for my position but the alternative is a 10k pay increase with 60-90 minutes driving a day (plus CA gas).
I manage people that make the same or slightly more than me, but they drive 30-60 min one way, so in the end I’m benefiting more.
Long drives can be extremely stressful, whether we consciously acknowledge it or not. My last job was extremely stressful but one thing that wasn’t adding to that was the ten minute bike ride each way. I never had to worry about traffic and being late because it was always ten minutes. Commuting is often under-rated as a quality of life factor. I think the most stress inducing bicycle commute by far was the day I ran over a squirrel.
Good for you! Children are only children once, jobs will always be jobs. I definitely am not going back to the office & will freelance if I have to. (software)
Good on you for quitting.
I would HIGHLY advise though, ensuring you have another job lined up before quitting. Lined up as in, you have the paperwork signed. It’s common these days to go months without any work. I’ve been at it for a few years myself, and I’m a tech lead.
You’ve been looking for work for a few years as a tech lead?
Yup, but I’m switching things up. (just check my casual conversations post I just posted).
