A recent study published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences reveals that across all political and social groups in the United States, there is a strong preference against living near AR-15 rifle owners and neighbors who store guns outside of locked safes. This surprising consensus suggests that when it comes to immediate living environments, Americans’ views on gun control may be less divided than the polarized national debate suggests.
The research was conducted against a backdrop of increasing gun violence and polarization on gun policy in the United States. The United States has over 350 million civilian firearms and gun-related incidents, including accidents and mass shootings, have become a leading cause of death in the country. Despite political divides, the new study aimed to explore whether there’s common ground among Americans in their immediate living environments, focusing on neighborhood preferences related to gun ownership and storage.
I’m fine with it as long as they’re properly trained and respect it.
Being a British person, can they just ban guns already? Gun corporations don’t count as people.
The worst part is we’ve been heading backwards in the last few years, with the conservative Supreme Court invalidating state level restrictions
The second amendments does not say there can be no restrictions. For example we used to restrict concealed carry to those who do the appropriate paperwork and demonstrate sufficient need. Now anyone can. Why the fuck are you carrying a concealed weapon in a city? There’s no place you can use it without endangering innocent people there’s just no excuse. Your rights to look edgy and feel in control should not trump my right to not be killed
Or this guy in Florida is a textbook example of irrationality and not responsible enough to own a weapon. There should have been no bail, no release, and no more right to bear arms. I hope the Uber guy sues him out of his home and life savings, because that seems to be the only justice
For example we used to restrict concealed carry to those who do the appropriate paperwork and demonstrate sufficient need.
*And it is still this way in about 1/2 of the states.
Now anyone can.
*In about 1/2 of the states, unless of course they are a prohibited possessor.
Just trying to be accurate, no pun intended.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States
In 2022, the Supreme Court ruled in New York State Rifle & Pistol Association, Inc. v. Bruen, that the Second Amendment does protect “an individual’s right to carry a handgun for self-defense outside the home.” The case struck down New York’s strict law requiring people to show “proper cause” in order to get a concealed weapons permit, and could affect similar laws in other states such as California, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and Rhode Island.[70] Shortly after the Supreme Court ruling, the attorney generals of each of California,[71] Hawaii (concealed-carry licenses only),[72] Maryland,[73] Massachusetts,[74] New Jersey,[75] and Rhode Island (permits issued by municipalities only)[76] issued guidance that their “proper cause” or similar requirements would no longer be enforced.
This just means that one doesn’t have to show “proper cause” to get a permit. For instance NYC (which was the case in question) which only gave permits to those who could show “proper cause” which ended up being only rich and/or famous people and politicians who are better than their
lowly serfsconstituents. Still have to get the permit in NYC, they just can’t deny you because “you aren’t important enough to need it” anymore.Why do you need concealed carry? “To shoot up a school”. Ok
Try that lol see what happens.
Ahh you see, in America corporations do count as people!
Seriously though, as someone who has been personally affected by a US mass shooting, the ban can’t come fast enough but I know it’ll never happen without a massive overhaul of our political system which I don’t see happening anytime soon…
Possible, but not any time soon. We’d need massive campaigns about it to shift public opinion and then a very high bar to repeal an amendment. It doesn’t help that many Americans have deified the first 10 amendments.
(Even as we don’t actually enjoy the rights)
Against the Constitution, so no, they cannot. It would require amending the Constitution first.
The Constitution says nothing about AR weaponry. It actually doesn’t even say every single person should be allowed to purchase and keep a firearm
What is literally written in the constitution isn’t always as important as how those words have been interpreted by congress and the courts.
Unfortunately that leads to a sliding scale. One court says you can’t remove something because it’s in the Constitution, the next court allows that same entry to be bypassed by interpreting it in a way that isn’t in the Constitution, the third interprets it completely differently.
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Who’s the people? Is it individuals? Is it the town council?
That’s been interpreted 10 different ways over the last 200 years.
“Collective rights” are obviously and effectively useless. Imagine someone claiming you must be silenced but your First Amendment rights weren’t violated because somebody else somewhere gets to speak after he did the appropriate paperwork. The Bill of Rights has been construed to broadly protect individual rights for this reason. It takes mental gymnastics to apply different reasoning to certain of the 10 listed items in order to align it to a desired political outcome.
You just described that actual state of the first amendment. You don’t need to imagine that because that’s exactly what’s happening. Complete with police brutality and arrests to discourage future speech.
“Bear Arms” is simply too vague. I feel like I should be able to have a SAM installation according to that.
I’m not sure if I’ve got this right, but from the rest of the buzz on the internet I think the 2nd amendment means I’m allowed to keep bear arms to make women feel safe?
Sign me up! Can I get one that’s sized to work on starlings? Or maybe a little tiny one that’ll do mosquitos…
The “well-regulated militia” part afterwards isn’t vague, but gets ignored by self-proclaimed “originalists”.
Correct that it isn’t vague. It means “well functioning” as they would have used it. A contemporary would have said a clock that keeps time accurately is “well-regulated”. It doesn’t refer to bureaucratic regulation in the slightest, as you can compare how those topics were talked about in the same documents of the constitutional convention and the Federalist Papers etc. and the verbiage used is completely different.
People in those days used flowery language such as Washington’s quote “Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair.” He isn’t talking about wrenching a bicycle.
It also takes deliberate ignorance to read a list of 10 individual rights and construe that one in particular is somehow collectivized and handcuffed by a footnote about its justification.
That is because the “well regulated militia” part is neither the subject of the sentence, nor a qualifier for the rest of the sentence. It’s pretty straight forward English sentence structure. It explains a primary reason why the individual right to keep and bear arms “shall not be infringed” is important, and like a comment line in computer code it doesn’t “do” anything to the rest of the program.
The federalist papers and the militia acts back up that “originalist” interpretation.
You can come and take em…
If your suburban/urban neighbor knows what model of gun you have and you aren’t hunting/shooting buddies then you’re doing something horribly wrong and are definitely a scary neighbor regardless of what type of gun it is.
This is a more of a study on the public’s opinion of this model gun. It gets a bad rap in media, so people who don’t know anything else about it don’t want anything to do with it.
Until they need somebody with one…
Ya know you were making a fair point right up until that last sentence. While yes the reason the AR-15 is so feared is cause its super common meaning that by sheer statistics id expect it to be used in shootings fairly frequently, I dont want some random sonovabitch coming near me with any gun. Not because I fear guns, but because most folks are fucking stupid and unless ive got some type of guarantee they know what their doing im assuming they are a fuck up.
I apply the same rule to power tools and mobile industrial equipment.
Taking the shotty for a walk.
As you do
[Whistling “farmer in the dell.”]
US citizens be like: “It’s fine with us, buchy’all needta keep all that over there!”
😀🤷♂️😅
The hilarious part of this is that statistically, many Americans have AR-15s and other rifles sitting somewhere within a few hundred yards of them. There are countless millions of them.
This would be like polling people about their fears surrounding theoretical concealed weapons when, statistically, they just got home from the grocery store or gas station and there were probably 10 people there carrying guns without incident, and they just didn’t know about it.
I may be unaware of the rats living in a small nest inside of a drainspout near me, but that still doesn’t mean rats are “okay” or “harmless”. So this isn’t quite a gotcha about their normality.
I have a problem with being compared to vermin for the rifle that sits unloaded in a safe until I take it to the range
In the comparison above, the rifles would be the rats… not you.
I haven’t seen a single rifle say it was offended by that statement.
I have a problem with living near a AR-15 owner and rolling the dice about how honestly responsible every member of their household is, but it seems like neither of us is getting a simple solution.
Every parent of every school shooter would also claim to be a responsible gun owner. Who wouldn’t?
Yea I really don’t care if you’re “rolling the dice.” Laughable hyperbole. Most people are demonstrably unsafe drivers, but I don’t revel in imaginary victimhood and try to take people’s cars away. As a great man once said, “Life sucks, get a fucking helmet.” Or in your case, a plate carrier. I’m going to keep stacking ammo and guns and not shoot anyone, not because murder is wrong, but out of spite for anti-gunners. Anyway Trump sucks. Hail Satan.
“Not caring” about other people’s safety is definitely characteristic of gun owners, so full consistency there.
Same with the fucken “Most people are demonstrably unsafe drivers”. Shit REEKS of self aggrandizement, but then again most conservatives seem to anymore.
Not a conservative, but nice try
You should get out and meet people and see the full spectrum there is, instead of wasting your razor sharp wits on the internet. I think you’d be surprised to find the cartoonish spectres you conjure to rail against are hard to find.
While it sounds like you safely own a firearm, letting you do that means we let mentally ill people, irresponsible parents, and whoever feels like also have access.
Sorry to say, but I would take your guns away from you 1000x if it meant taking them away from people who cannot own them safely.
You’ll never get the chance.
As a gun owning liberal, what about AR-10s?
The comments couldn’t get more American if it was a competition on making American commentary.
I understand both side of the argument, but at the same time I get neither. American cultural identity in relation to firearms is unique in the Western world. Guns have transcended rights and wrongs. People hunt. People use guns recreationally. People cosplay warriors. Some people use guns for bad reasons. Most people never cause the slightest harm. But in any event, culturally, guns occupy a political position not usually seen in the first world.
I’m not even sure what I am trying to say? I do know this, the debate will never end because the two different positions are completely contradictory and all compromise is effectively lost. I’d be interested in hearing a solution that both sides could live with. It would be a doozy.
You’ve succinctly defined the problem, and the only solution is a cultural shift away from the norm. Hopefully that shift will be peaceful, which will most likely only happen if it’s gradual.
the only solution is a cultural shift
The culture is always shifting. I would not say it has shifted in the direction of safety. On the one hand, you have horders who believe its their civil right to stuff their house with tank shells and miniguns and you can’t tell them what to do. On the other, you’ve got police who will start firing blindly in all directions when an acorn drops, because they’re so terrified of anyone else owning a gun.
Together, these seem to suggest a cultural shift towards “You’re allowed to own a gun but if you make me scared I’m allowed to shoot you” as a middle ground.
In all honesty if someone has tank shells and a minigun they probably have a shit tonne of permits. Either that or they dont have any dogs so the ATF doesnt care.
Yeah, the culture in this case is a glacier. The cultural shift is going to leave gouges in the earth.
Oh yeah you can exercise your rights somewhere else. Somewhere waaaay in another county.
I imagine people (in the US) would be less itchy about neighbors with guns if everyone had bullet resistant walls and there were fewer accidental discharges around.
I think people would be less itchy about neighbors with guns if less school children were being massacred.
That would definitely help.
the gun ownership attribute had three levels: no gun ownership, owning a pistol, and owning an AR-15,
This study design is bad, and they should feel bad. If they’re going to claim that people are afraid of AR-15s, they should compare it apples-to-apples with other rifles, or just ask about rifles generally, like they did with pistols.
Furthermore, any study asking opinion questions for what should be data-driven decisions are misleading at best and harmful at worst. If your concern is safety in communities, you should study actual safety, not feelings. It appears they want to make people feel safe, while not necessarily increasing safety.
The study isn’t about community safety or gun stats, they said the goal was to explore opinions. Opinions are therefore the data, the facts, of this domain. Are you seriously suggesting that researchers interested in opinions eschew opinions and use (barely relevant) stats instead? Because people don’t necessarily form opinions on facts. Which is why opinions are their own thing, and evidence is another thing. Two separate domains.
“80% of Americans think there should be more affordable housing in theory. 10% of Americans are willing to live near affordable housing.”
This kind of stuff is worth committing to data.
Given that hunting is a very common pastime in the US, and that hunting rifles are statistically the firearms least likely to be used in a homicide, I think you’d find that information to be a pretty useless outlier, on the level of asking about bow or fencing foil ownership.
A major reason many people buy an AR is because they think they are bad asses and want a bad ass weapon. I would rather have a level headed AR owning neighbor than a wanna-be bad ass neighbor owning ANY kind of weapon.
[citation needed]
I own an AR because it’s kinda easy to work on without Royally Fucking it Up.
TSA joins the conversation
The TSA can go die in a fire.
I have to agree. I know my neighbors have a few different assault rifles and it does not bother me at all. When shit goes down I know we got each other backs
What “shit” would have to go down to where you would need to have each others backs? You know your opponents are the ones that don’t even want to own guns… you don’t have to be terrified of us.
Why are you assuming to know who their opponents are? I’m pretty socialist leaning (union steward like, convince my friends to read the Communist Manifeso like) I own a handful of guns. I know my “opponents” are likely armed.
The Socialist Rifle Association is assuming their opponents will be armed.We saw it during the BLM protests: the police are very willing to injure and kill unarmed protesters, but play very nicely when armed protesters are around. That convinced me.
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Fair enough for a general survey question. However, the point about how policy decisions shouldn’t be based on opinion/anecdote is still valid (at least in the case of gun control).
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I could understand the argument for factoring people’s feelings into policy in some cases, but let’s take this study as an example.
Handguns are responsible for far more harm than AR-15s, but this study shows people “fear” AR-15s more. A policy that is based on these findings and not empirical data may attempt to reduce gun violence by addressing AR-15 ownership. Thereby not having a major effect on reducing actual gun violence.
A policy focusing on reducing handgun ownership would be much more effective at reducing gun violence, despite people not fearing them as much.
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I think you’re confusing me with other commentors. I haven’t suggested this research in particular is being actively used to support policy decisions. Nor have I suggested this research is advocating for policy.
In my initial comment I simply said policy in general (at least with gun control) shouldn’t be based on people’s feelings/anecdotes.
I think this study asked a very interesting question, and I find the results to be very interesting. I don’t really have any issues with this research by itself.
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How people feel is important to know because it will influence how a change needs to be presented.
In this example: A lot of oeople feel safer owning guns, science show they’re wrong and it actually decreases their safety, in order to be able to change things in a way that people will accept it that perception needs to be changed.
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That’s right, we should be making decisions on what makes people actually safe instead of what feels safe. So all the gun owners who say they need a gun because it makes them feel safe should be ignored because multiple studies have shown that owning a gun actually makes you less safe.
Yes, people want to feel safe. Emotional health is an important part of quality of life.
And this isn’t a data-driven decision. This is a study on how people feel about an issue. Nobody is making a decision based on this, outside of politicians understanding the best way to speak in public when campaigning. Why are you so upset that someone studies how people feel? Yes, the study could have been more in-depth and asked about different types of rifles, but then someone would complain that they didn’t include X gun or Y rifle, or they would complain that they lumped all rifles together, or complain about the lumping of “assault rifles,” or complain that shotguns aren’t included.
It’s like turning right on red. It has been proven to be safer by tons of data-driven studies. But people fucking hate it when you are used to being able to turn and go about your drive when there is no traffic around.
Obligatory “no study is done properly since I, the Internet rando, saith it so”
Because there is no actual need for such a weapon. Nobody outside the military needs a spraynpray gun. Yeah they look sexy to some, i get that, but i can do as much “damage” more accurately with my plainjane hunting rifle.
They’re just semi auto rifles. The tech is more than 100 years old at this point.
How in the world is an AR a spray n pray gun? Barrels shorter than 16" require a tax stamp and approval. An AR can be built to be pretty damn accurate. Do you just not like that it’s semi auto?
Idk why people go after the AR platform when you can go buy a Barrett .50 cal anti materiel rifle in 49 states, and there’s plenty of less scary shaped semi auto rifles out there.
Millions of M1 Carbines were widely and affordably available for years before the AR-15 was a thing. It, like the AR-15, is also an easily-handled magazine-fed semi-automatic rifle firing intermediate cartridges, and was intended for military service.
Virtually no school shootings occurred until Columbine (and the media coverage surrounding it, and the miserable state of American society) set off the waves of shootings that continues to this day. It’s worth noting they didn’t use either AR-15s or M1 Carbines, that didn’t become common until later.
If the AR-15 is the cause of this because it is an easily-handled magazine-fed semi-automatic rifle firing intermediate cartridges, how do people explain the near complete lack of mass shootings despite the wide adoption of the M1 Carbine in a time when gun ownership was even less restrictive?
Not a hard enough question? Ok try this one: actual machine guns used to be widely available and much more affordable than they are today. Why is there relatively little recorded violence with them?
I think the answer is marketing. Much like mp3 players existed before the iPod, sometimes something just takes off and centers on a particular product that maybe has a bit more glitz, or better marketing. I think the idea of legislating specific products is stupid.
They go after this platform, because it’s a favorite of mass shooters. You know this.
Toyota Camrys are also a favorite of car crashers, never you mind that they’re one of the most owned cars, correlation=causation dammit!
Red owners tend to drive their cars faster and … Tend to get more tickets.
And wouldnt you know it, BECAUSE cars can do a shitload of damage in the wrong hands, they require years of training and certification to be able to legally operate.
I didn’t have to do years of training. I took a 2 week driver’s ed course and took a test. Had my provisional as soon as I turned 15.
But on the other side to get a hunting license when I was a kid I had to do a state run hunter safety class to learn about gun safety.
I dont know the Details for the States, but for Canada, the first Test you pass gets you a Learners, in which you arent allowed to drive without a full licence Driver present, and you’re only allowed to take your restricted New Driver’s license after a year of having an L and not getting any tickets, and then a year after that you can finally get an unrestricted license. Multiple years. But I guess if the states is stupid with itd guns, it’d make sense its stupid with its cars too
We let any idiot with a pulse drive because in most of rural America you’d starve to death without a car
Ok what does the AR name mean? Assault Rifle? Assault rifles are typically spraynpray by design. Thats their main attraction and the main reason they are targetted
It literally means ArmaLite Rifle after its original designer and manufacturer. At least verify your information prior to claiming it as fact.
Wouldn’t that make it an ALR and not a AR?
Ok. still it is cosmetically an assault rifle. Colt owns the name now. The ar-15 is the army’s m-16
I don’t understand how cosmetics are relevant to its function. Like many other rifles, an AR-15 is usually semi-automatic, is that the issue you have with it?
Do you really need 30 rounds in one? More rounds is more targets
Do you really need a fast car or nice clothes? The bus and a burlap sack will work just fine.
This doesn’t answer my question, you’re deflecting, however it also accepts 10 or 20 round magazines just fine. Personally I would say I like the option, my preference is 20rds, it makes it a little easier when shooting from a resting position.
This is factually incorrect. Don’t take this as a judgement on you or your position, just that you should be approaching any side from a factually sound place.
“AR” in “AR-15” stands for ArmaLite Rifle. ArmaLite is the firearms manufacturer where Eugene Stoner was working when he designed the rifle.
Assault rifles, and most other weapons capable of automatic fire, are generally not intended to be used as “spray 'n pray” weapons. That is generally reserved for stationary machine guns (think the beach on D-Day).
Assault rifles generally are classified as weapons that fire an intermediary cartridge that are capable of select-fire. Meaning that they fire cartridges with size and energy in between centerfire pistol (ex. 9x19mm) and full-power rifle (ex. .30-06 Springfield AKA 7.62x73mm) and the operator may select between multiple modes of fire. Usually these are semi-automatic (one round per trigger pull), fully-automatic (continues to fire rounds while trigger is held down) and/or burst-fire (two to three rounds per trigger pull).
The use of fully-automatic fire on modern assault rifles is extremely limited, with standard issue military rifles in the US military having the fire mode completely absent until the recent switch from the M4 (semi-auto and burst-fire only) to the M4A1 (semi-auto and full-auto). Tactically, fully-automatic fire is usually limited in use to room clearing in close combat and for suppressing fire (keeping the enemy combatants from leaving cover) to allow the squad to break contact and retreat to safety. This is reflected in the types of units that have been consistently issued assault rifles capable of full-auto; generally special forces and reconnaissance units that may be deployed outside of range of friendly support.
Full-auto in an assault rifle is simply not very useful in modern military roles. A standard issue magazine holds 30 rounds. An M4A1 in full-auto fires about 800 rounds-per-minute. That means that it takes just a bit less than 2.5 seconds to empty an entire magazine, putting the soldier in the vulnerable position of needing to reload. In most situations, it’s far better to employee a squad automatic weapon, which is generally fed by a belt with much higher capacity, allowing sustained suppressing fire to allow allies to maneuver.
All of that said, I do, personally, agree that civilians (including police forces) ought not to have military-like firearms primarily intended for shooting humans. But that is because I am mostly a pacifist. The ArmaLite Rifle (AR-15) is NOT a select-fire rifle but a semi-auto one. It can, however, be modified into one (illegally) and uses the same rounds and accessories. To me, that makes it “military-like” and should likely be heavily regulated (but won’t be).
TL;DR - Whichever side you are arguing, do it with facts.
Got it already thanks
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Same, we own a shotgun for bird hunting that doubles as a potential home defense weapon. I don’t want to turn a home invader into Swiss cheese, I want them to GTFO and the sound of racking a shotgun is unmistakable. Practically no one breaking into houses is doing it for funsies, I don’t want to kill them.
The sound of a charging handle racking isn’t much different and the exact same effect could be achieved, fwiw. Also studies have shown that 5.56 or .223 HP penetrate less through drywall than buckshot, and bird can be much less effective than your grandpa thinks. Remember Dick Cheyney’s “hunting trip?”
Though the AR is useless for the birds.
When I had a shotgun because I lived in a bad part of town the loads went Bird, Bird, intermediate. The idea is for them to leave and if they won’t then kill them.
There is no functional difference between an AR and any other Semi Auto rifle. Including the ones used by hunters and sports shooters.
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I agree that it doesn’t make much statistical sense to feel safer with a hand gun owning neighbor than a rifle owning neighbor, which is what the survey seems to say.
I think it’s really telling us something about the branding of this particular firearm (and its stereotypical owner).
Normally pretty much an anarchist in my policy predilections. But there are folks I went to school with that I wouldn’t trust with a power drill, much less a rifle. Seems they’re just the ones that make the biggest deal over having guns -and least likely to use them in any responsible way. The role these sorts of badass-looking firearms play now is to make powerless Americans feel like they have some agency. Likely dangerous when these misinformed, utterly propagandized serfs feel extra pressed and attribute their low quality of life to all the wrong reasons/people.
The role these sorts of badass-looking firearms play now is to make powerless Americans feel like they have some agency.
In general helping cowards feel themselves bigger. That’s a problem with weapons, yes.
It’s easy to picture powerless people as “cowards”, but now think about a victim of rape who has several known exes they worry about meeting again.
Ah. You meant somebody whose prior traumatic experience may cause them to use a firearm before thinking? That’s not cowardice, of course. But I’d rather have such people carry pepper sprays and maybe traumatic pistols.
As an anarchist my position is: Guns are useless until they’re pointed at you. No problem with people owning them, but they should only be used to fight against systematic oppression, and (only if there is no other alternative) self defense. Otherwise guns are completely useless.
Yep, it’s always the guys who get really angry when you say “do you mind not talking about guns” and then just start loudly talking about their guns more
I’m related to an idiot who got drummed out of two professions for that reason
Your title left out the whole “and neighbors who store their firearms unsafely”.
I would wager that the poll would have come out differently had those two vastly diverse topics been separated.
It all comes down to the same basic selfishness. Gun lovers don’t want those crazies next door to have AR-15s, they only want themselves to have all the AR-15s, loaded and lying on the coffee table in case they suddenly need them.
Yeah not sure about the other responsible gun owners, but I certainly want my neighbors to have some firepower. Remember that firearms are supposed to be a check and/or balance against tyranny.
Pfft, only losers. I’d build them and work on them for my neighbors and wouldn’t even charge labor.
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