Windows 10 EoL is fast approaching, so I thought I’d give Linux a try on some equipment that won’t be able to upgrade to Windows 11. I wanted to see if I will be able to recommend an option to anyone that asks me what they should do with their old PC.
Many years ago I switched to Gentoo Linux to get through collage. I was very anti-MS at the time. I also currently interact with Linux systems regularly although they don’t have a DE and aren’t for general workstation use.
Ubuntu: easy install. Working desktop. Had issues with getting GPU drivers. App Store had apps that would install but not work. The App Store itself kept failing to update itself with an error that it was still running. It couldn’t clear this hurdle after a reboot so I finally killed the process and manually updated from terminal. Overall, can’t recommend this to a normal user.
Mint: easy install. Switching to nvidia drivers worked without issue. App Store had issues with installing some apps due to missing dependencies that it couldn’t install. Some popular apps would install but wouldn’t run. Shutting the laptop closed results in a prompt to shutdown, but never really shuts off. Update process asks me to pick a fast source (why can’t it do this itself?)
Both: installing apps outside of their respective stores is an adventure in terminal instead of a GUI double-click. Secure boot issues. Constant prompt for password instead of a simple PIN or other form of identity verification.
Search results for basic operations require understanding that what works for Ubuntu might not work for Mint.
While I personally could work with either, I don’t see Linux taking any market share from MS or Apple when windows 10 is retired.
You must log in or register to comment.
an adventure in terminal
That I do not understand. With APT, it’s usually a single installation command for any kind of software packaged by the distribution. An adventure would in that case translate to a one-liner by your standards?
Any problem that breaks the GUI version to such a degree that the user must resort to using the terminal is a problem. You and I may be content to use the terminal – hell, I tend to prefer it over most GUi options – but that doesn’t mean your average user will be happy to do so.
I would be surprised if 5% of the people that use a computer at all know how to work a CLI of any form.
Additionally, when you get a response from the command that the dependencies failed to install, what is the typical computer operator expected to do? They are already far outside of their abilities at this point.
I know jack and shit about Linux, but my laptop running Mint has happily taken every computer job, except for recording music, from my win10 desktop. I have opened the terminal exactly 0 times. There’s a flatpack for everything I have desired so far. oS geekness is not needed to run Linux. As I get used to the available music software I will have no further need of ms windows.
Anti-libre software forcing us to click through 69 boxes to fail without showing any error while banning us from sharing fixes source code, banning us from fixing the problem, is so much better. I would be surprised if 0.00001% can’t open terminal, type three words and press enter.
ill upvote do to zorinos
deleted by creator
Philosophy time: Is it unpopular opinion if 90% of PC users agree with you?
On the other hand, this is an unpopular opinion on Lemmy
Which is why I posted it. I was honestly hoping to be proven wrong, but instead I got a lot of victim blaming. Even Linux users aren’t ready to accept mainstream people coming from Windows.
Why do Windows users feel entitled to the free labor of others.
I don’t think open source developers should feel obligated to chase after “normal users”, they should just make great software. Linux is arguably the most successful OS that has ever existed, if it’s not dominant in one specific shrinking sector is that the worst thing in the world?
Linux (+ everything needed for a desktop) has been a great desktop system for 20+ years, most difficulties aren’t the fault of Linux, they’re the fault of vendors failing to support and/or Microsoft throwing up barriers to competition.
Linux is arguably the most successful OS that has ever existed
…what??? If we’re talking about users using the desktop experience (so like, not systems where linux is the backend, but the user never experiences it), then Windows is the dominant OS platform. If for nothing else than people know how to use it because every business uses it.
Second most used would be iOS.
And then…with maybe less than 1% of users, would be linux. Nobody uses Linux, because nobody knows how the fuck to use it.
Saying Linux is the most dominant OS platform for users is like saying Kwanzaa is the most celebrated religious holiday. I’m 40 years old. I’ve been in jobs where you meet new people every day. Probably have met thousands of people.
I’ve met exactly ONE linux user. Well…I should say linux family. He was a 34 year old, who lived at his grandmothers house, because he lived with his dad, and his 62 year old dad still lived with his 93 year old mom. But, I only interacted with the family for 2-3 hours. I’m still not 100% sure the mom was actually alive. I briefly saw her move, but you could easily convince me it was a weekend at bernies situation.
I cannot give an accurate number on how many windows users I’ve used. It’s far too high.
Victim blaming? Who’s the victim?
Linux abused them. Have some compassion, you monster
This…except I’m not joking. Linux definately killed a few of my brain cells.
A bunch of people telling me I did it wrong, or used the wrong distro, or that 90% of normal windows users will know how to troubleshoot software that isn’t installing right by going into terminal.
The victim is either the typical normal user or me depending on these types of responses.
90% of normal windows users will know how to troubleshoot software that isn’t installing right by going into terminal.
I would have said "90% of windows users have no idea what a terminal is. If you told them to use terminal, they would ask “Oh no! Are you dying???”
There’s some merit to offering other distros to try for you, the individual. We’re all nerds, it’s a problem we want to help solve. (Bazzite is my recommendation if you’re up for another shot lol.)
But in terms of “is Linux ready for the average user,” I think Mint is considered pretty widely to be a “just works” sort of distro. It’s certainly fair to use that experience as an example.
No distro “just works” until the whole platform can easily install software by double clicking. You need to be able to uninstall terminal 100% and still have a functioning OS.
The kind of OS a drunk lizard man could sit on a mouse and still operate the OS with his butthole.
THEN it just works.
Do I upvote this post if I disagree or only if I know most people disagree with it?
Right???
Both: installing apps outside of their respective stores is an adventure in terminal instead of a GUI double-click. Secure boot issues. Constant prompt for password instead of a simple PIN or other form of identity verification.
Well that is actually not true. What do you want to install? Of course if you are a power user and want some special script for whatever reason yeah I can see you being forced to use the terminal, other than that there’s often a DEB you can install via GUI with double klick, there are flatpaks you can install via GUI and double click and also AppImages. You can come pretty damn far with that to be honest.
For media consumption, internet browsing etc, Linux is more than ready to replace Windows. However, problems do arise in exotic hardware combinations, but these days, this is the exception rather than the norm.
My wife’s gaming pc runs on garuda for quite some time now and she never had any problems, just saying. To the more intricate things: people have to get already that they don’t get the everything-button. If you want something as you specifically want it, you have to learn some stuff. If you want a table that’s just right for you and well done, you’ll have to pay good money or learn carpentry. Why should it be different with technology?
While I don’t have any strong opinions about this, I think the point of the post is:
While a linux bed can be good with some investment, It’s not something that I would recommend to an average user, they wouldn’t know how to use It out of the blue, and not everyone has large quantities of money or time to learn carpentry.
Tbf I did try out Linux Mint after using Windows basically my entire life and the only issue I ran into was that setting up the desktop was a bit fucky through the inbuilt UI settings (notably panels freaking out).
Other than that, it was fine.
Non-FOSS operating systems treat me like a product.
That’s not good enough.
It is a tough sale for sure.
I am trying to transition to Linux but there are a bunch of hurdles.
For example I installed fedora KDE spin in dual boot on my desktop. Then I installed steam as a flatpak and pointed it to my already installed game. Didn’t work because of some permissions I didn’t understand how to configure with flatseal.
Alright then noted I need to learn that shit but now I want to play a game so I uninstalled the steam flatpak and installed the steam package from the fedora repo. Checked the boxes in the packagemanager-gui (discovery) for nonfree steam and nonfree nvidia drivers, pointed to the library and it worked.
Great! Updated the games and downloaded the saves. So far so good. But after all that I had no time to play anymore because i had to look up a bunch of stuff to understand that I don’t understand enough to make it work the way I tried.
I took my laptop with me which also has fedora KDE on it. When I had a little time I thought “hey maybe I can play a bit of moonring. After all I now know how to get steam running”.
So I downloaded steam from the fedora repo, Logged in, downloaded moonring and… No save sync.
I go into settings and see that cloud save is enabled. Start a game maybe that triggers it? Nope.
It doesn’t even say that sync failed or something like that beside the start button.
Okay so off to the web search. But as that gets more fucked by the minute I just get some problem adjacent stuff.
Like: “how to install steam on fedora”. I already installed it, why isn’t the cloud working? “Maybe it is because the path for savefiles is casesensitive?”. Maybe but what am I supposed to do about it? And so on. So I closed my laptop with a bad taste in my mouth.
It is just frustrating to have to understand a bunch of shit you are not interested in just so that something works which worked before without a problem.
The world is just to complex and fast moving to understand everything and to retain everything. That’s why we are an expert society. “I invest my time to understand this stuff really good and you invest your time to understand this and in the end we exchange our labor”.
And that’s the “problem” with Linux, that you have invest time into it. And people mostly don’t have the time because they have lifes beside the PC.
Anti-libre software, Steam, bans us from sharing fixed source code. Software hijacking our control, no one has time for that.
Sounds like your issue is with steam, not with Linux.
In fact my issue was with neither. As it turns out the game does not have cloud saves enabled. Other games sync.
I gave up when the graphics kept breaking itself on every update. I don’t have the time or patience to fix that kind of stuff, anymore.
If moonring has a linux native variant, it is not going to sync saves between versions automatically, you can download the proton version of your game however and snag your game files to put in the linux native version (or honestly just play the proton version, they are usually more up to date)
“replacing windows” should not be the objective of the Linux desktop ecosystem.
Tell that to every Linux fan that responds with “just install Linux” to every single Windows related issue.
But like… what other option is there? Windows sucks absolute ass and its not getting better.
(random ass double post)
MacOS.
It’s the middle ground between windows and Linux imo.
It’s unix-y enough to give you tons of flexibility with the terminal. Homebrew is one of the better package management systems out there. Iterm2 is the best terminal emulator I’ve used.
You get access to most popular software still and the hardware is unmatched.
It’s more expensive and less flexible in terms of OS customization though and you basically can’t game on it. I think there are some good tiling window managers for it though.
You’re right but the ask we’re going to see next year is “what do I do with my old laptop/desktop now that it won’t run windows?” And after my experience with 3 distros the answer is “recycle it and buy a new one”
99% of Apple’s customers, or the general populace, have no intention of ever installing another OS on their Apple product. Most of them wouldn’t even know it was possible, or care.
But for those people that want to try something with the laptop they were just going to throw out anyway, or now they have two desktops after buying an upgrade, and they are willing to tinker with something new, why not? The issues you came across with Mint seem to have a very minor impact to me in the context of running a web browser, word processing, and video streaming. A later comment seemed to place PopOS in the same category. For a casual user, who isn’t needing to install a bunch of different apps, isn’t that fine?
Most people don’t see a tinkering with an old laptop as fun.
For the casual user the issues I encountered are not acceptable.
Maybe “tinker” is too strong for what I meant to convey, but even switching from Windows 10 to Windows 11 would involve some level of re-learning and tinkering to get things how they like. Unfortunately, they are being forced one way or another, and that’s on Microsoft.
Unix. 😌
There is no other option, and that’s ok.
The vaaaast majority of users just don’t care about the problems you cite, and honestly they’re probably happier for it.
You don’t need to fix privacy for everyone else if they’re happy with broken privacy.
deleted by creator
That’s pretty much it.
There are plenty of user friendly Linux distros out there and a bunch of them can serve as a daily driver for general computing. What’s more, the learning curve isn’t that steep and you can find tons of solid guides and tutorials out on the Internet.
But if Windows is working and you don’t care about the privacy issues, ads, and it’s general downward direction in user experience, there’s no motivation to switch.
Sadly, the whole “Linux is only for power users and nerds” misconception is going to stick around until Windows becomes all but unusable for most people.
MacOS isn’t going anywhere, but I’m not paying that much for the privilege.
I know this is a popular meme but I just don’t really see that. I guess I don’t see posts about windows related issues.
I’m a Linux fan but it’s very obvious to me that linux is not the correct solution for most users.
unintentionally hilarious comment
Personally, I think we reached the point where most users would be fine. Once they switch, then the more professional applications will come.
I wish Tumbleweed would be used more. It’s easy to install (but the installer is being rewritten anyways). Also, I have updated it on a laptop that was 2 years behind (because of lack of use). It updated perfectly and even proprietary software like Zoom just worked.
2023 was the year of the Linux Desktop. Wayland + pipewire gives us a base to have modern features but it took a long time to reach this point.
Dude most users don’t even know what a web browser is let alone package managers or driver maintenance.
Yes, but same applies on windows. Window still needs to be maintained as well.
All you’ve got to do is shut it down and it’ll ask if you want to update.
Under KDE, discover will send a system notification for updates.
Pretty sure other DEs do the same. But I can’t confirm since I only bother with KDE.
@[email protected] MicroOs (Gnome version called Aeon and KDE version called Kalpa) will make OS updating and installing programs as easy as Android. MicroOS is essentially a locked down version of Tumbleweed (that sacrifices being able to customize for ease of maintenance).
The base is there. Linux is as easy as Windows at the moment for MOST tasks. Yes, it’s nice that the manufacture set up the drivers on Windows but that is not the fault of Linux. The OpenSuse installer is very good at recognizing hardware off a clean install.
edit: grammar
What’s Windows?
A retirement system the Kremlin uses.
I’m willing to accept, that without a “mentor” Linux is hard to get setup for someone on their own.
For someone resourceful, they can ask every question and hopefully find the relevant Linux answers online, sometimes make a few mistakes but eventually figure it out.
Some users who are decent with computers and Windows might find some Linux things harder to use, and also sometimes hardware drivers or other features are missing. If they aren’t willing to put up with it to get away from Microsoft spyware then I respect that choice.
For users that need help setting up Windows to begin with from their “computer guy” that get flustered anytime something goes the way they didn’t expect, Linux actually can be a little lower maintenance. Have all the apps they need in an obvious place, have the system either update automatically or have them do it once every while. Linux has been very stable in my experience for that type of user too.
It’s not necessarily about asking questions or providing the right detail to someone who knows more than you though. After asking for help with the problems I’m experiencing, the answer turned out to be that the NVIDIA driver support for my hardware configuration just isnt there yet. It’s not Linux’s fault, but unless I spend hundreds to switch my GPU brand or start unlugging monitors, I’m stuck with Windows until Explicit Sync hits the stable release.
also sometimes hardware drivers or other features are missing
You make a good point, and I tried to encompass that in the quoted part of my comment. Stuff like fingerprint sensors is one thing, not having your video card supported is kind of difficult to put up with, admittedly.
Both mint and Ubuntu had issues with simple things like updating or running software, out of the box. Normal computer users won’t put up with that.
I did what the parent waz talking about to 3 children and 2 Seniors and one middle aged guy.
One child complained that he couldn’t install windows games his peers were playing but other than that no complains.
I installed Ubuntu on older laptops, made sure everything works. Turned on auto updates and installed VNC server software if help would be necessary.
I also have one person with windows I help remotely.
The only difference for me is that the windows user somehow constantly has some bullshit extensions or something which change the browser behavior.
Practically the only thing those people use is a browser.
Oh and nobody has a discrete graphics card which would require a driver. Each of those laptops worked fine from scratch, no hardware problems.
That’s just a straight up lie or an error on the part of the operator (you). Ubuntu is very stable with regard to running supported software, and rock-solid when it comes to updates not breaking things.
I wish it wasn’t true.
Also, let’s pretend it’s operator error. What should the typical user do? Reach out to a family friend that works in Linux?
Just thinking about my extended family, I can pick out 3 people that know windows, one that knows osx, and I would be the only one that knows anything about Linux. I suspect this is the norm.
do you not know how many linux support forums there are?? you can normally just search the issue and linux at the end and it will most the time get you there in the first page (outside of google that is).
Answers that say “paste this in your terminal” should not be used by people that don’t know what they are doing. Even if 99% of those solutions work, we should not learn non-it people to make a habit of pasting random shit in their terminal.
So actually there are almost no answers for Linux for non IT people.
I will agree on this. learning to use man pages, and just even looking up the pastes is something you need to do else you are running the risk reformatting your drive or even getting a tool that was good in 2018 but had a maintainer change and now its normally avoided. But you should be doing that with tools even on windows and most people fail the check there as well. It was part of computers just being the greatest thing ever and shoved into everyones home in a cow printed box.
“Normal” computer users have no idea how to install software. Most people need someone to do this stuff for them anyway. For those Linux has a lot less potential for screwing things up. Anyone who is reasonably competent can pick up Linux in a few hours. Anyone who doesn’t care about the enshittification won’t bother. Anyone who does should make the effort.
The discrepancy I find with your statement is you switch your target audience half way though.
““Normal” computer user” != reasonably competent
By normal computer user i mean your granny or any of the people I have on the phone on a daily basis. Most of those people have only very rudimentary IT skills. A reasonably competent user is a couple of levels above that.
deleted by creator
Is it still an unpopular opinion if I just hate that I agree with you?
(Writing this from my linux gaming desktop. I don’t use arch btw)
Yes we can be unpopular together.
Hey, if you get enough of you to agree, it’ll be the popular unpopular opinion!
