It’s a situation that I have been expecting for a while, but I wasn’t fully ready to accept it. Specifically it’s one of my LGBTQ friends who honestly believes in the democrats will protect them and their partner. I have tried to make the point that both parties are eroding any sort of civility towards all marginalized groups, but fear seems to drive them more than logical observations. They make the excuse that change doesn’t happen over night and that the left continues to grow and will have meaningful affects down the road. I fundamentally just don’t agree with that idea and vocalize it regularly. More and more it is ending up in a circular argument where I am painted as unrealistic and my rhetoric (leftist rhetoric) is doing more harm than good because it promotes distrust in the only system we have to work with. I try to tell them it’s kind of the whole point. We gotta start somewhere if we want to see a better, more representative system, but they are so hung up on the immediate future while simultaneously saying that my idealistic feelings are shortsighted and I cant expect change in the immediate future… The double-talk is wild, I know.
I am trying my hardest to stop from engaging at this point because on the most basic level we agree on a lot of stuff, but they are just way to wrapped up in the fear mongering of the democratic party. They know that the two party system is broken, they know that something drastic needs to change, but they also think that they are powerless to do anything except choose the lesser evil. It pains me because I am watching them do the same shit past generations have done, where they give up on their ideals for the sake of preserving the current status quo that they benefit from. I am legitimately watching them imply “fuck you, got mine” under the guise of civic duty and I hate it. I want nothing more than to be able to finally say “I told you so” without being a smug asshole about it and ruining our friendship.
Thanks for reading my rant. It’s probably a bit disjointed, but the frustration is boiling over and I needed to vent to the only group of people that seems to understand the hopelessness of being a disenfranchised leftist.
Talking to some friends last night and people were like “it has no right to be this close!” With like a tinge of fear. Just want to yell whose fault is that? Why doesn’t Harris do ANYTHING to address the mountains of concerns people have… No it’s allllllll stupid magas.
Another literally made the but she’ll do less genocide argument
fuckin a… I have very similar conversations over here too. Victim blaming the disenfranchised and touting an aura of superiority over the “dumb magas”
i die a little inside when people try to absolve Kamala of the crimes of Joe… I tried to make the point that her being a part of the administration means she supports it, there is no nuance imo.
Like you could make some sort of argument that she could be partially absolved… If she did ANYTHING to indicate her resistance. She could trash bidens policies publicly. She could speak via the media directly to Bibi and say that once she’s elected she’ll immediate stop all shipments. She could
the entire white House.She doesn’t so she’s chill with it and gets no absolution.
That is my view as well. The only reason she is toeing the line is for the sake of the party, which in itself is part of the fucking problem!
In the end I do not care her reasons for it. Materially she support killing every Palestinian. If she wants absolution whether due to feeling a glint of humanity or merely to win the election is immaterial. But she’d have to indeed go against the party as you say
Honesty I’ve learned to just shut the fuck up about politics when talking to PoC or LGBTQ friends. For some reason a straight white guy saying “ACTUALLY YOU WILL LIKELY NEVER BE TRULY SAFE IN OUR LIFETIME” is not received well.
Yeah, I specifically avoid that sentiment because I cannot control the way things I say will be interpreted. I would much rather keep my mouth shut because I’m not in the business of unintentionally offending people I care about.
Instead I try to convey it through the lens of my own experience to talk about the fears I have that lead me to feel how I do. Like how concerned I am about what is the next evil thing we are okay with now that we as a society have effectively given a pass to genocide enablers again.
Yeah I genuinely feel bad talking about politics with people I know in the community, there’s nothing positive to say really.
Like, you could point out that the Dems were appealing to pro-immigrant sentiments 4 years ago as their humane line, and in the space of a toddler’s lifetime have decided to throw them under the bus. But what does it actually accomplish to make it plain that they’re just kinda screwed, I dunno.
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For me it’s the whole “the left is continuing to grow”
Liberals have been shifting to the right for years. The democratic president is endorsed by dick fucking cheyney, is running on more cruelty on the border, and has completely given up even discussing universal Healthcare, and has completely dropped the ball on abortion.
The liberals are objectively getting worse which is to be expected when their main strategy is justnconceding to republicans on everything.
And it doesn’t even bother liberals, they’ll tell you with a straight face that bidens the most pro environemnt pro union president in history you can tell them “were drilling more oil than anyone ever anywhere and every time there’s a strike you liberals keep saying it’s a Russian hoax to hurt democrats”
And they just roll their eyes and fucking act like they’re so morally superior your real world examples don’t count.
And they just roll their eyes and fucking act like they’re so morally superior your real world examples don’t count.
UUUUUUUGH!
Yeah its the smugness that gets me the most. Especially my debate lord friends where I almost hear the deep inhale they take before spouting off about the systemic limits… Of systems they refuse to uproot out of fear of losing access to amazon prime.
Yea the root of the cause is liberals (seemingly intentionally) not actually understanding nefotiation despite the fact they regularly say compromise is their top priority.
You see it in the last strike where theybwere all saying the opening demands were completely unrealistic and then 48 hours later the union had reached a really beneficial deal.
Liberals think if you actually want to get $100 for something an opening bid of $200 is a moral failing.
Liberals negotiate themselves into a corner before their opponents even make an opening offer.
To continue the over simplified example of wanting $100 for something, a liberal woukd say “ideally I want $100 for this but I’m willing to go as low as $60”
Then republicans say “fuck you ill give you $10” and Liberals settle on $5 for the sake of compromise.
Liberals think if you actually want to get $100 for something an opening bid of $200 is a moral failing.
Exactly this.
We must demand true socialism from liberal politicians, so the compromise at least is somewhat acceptable on the short term. (Not that we can
out capitalism…)The minimum program is non-neoliberal economics and anti-imperialism. That’s the absolute minimum. IF they are not willing to make a compromise with the left why would I vote for them? Because the other guy is a right-winger? Therefore I should vote for a different right winger with different rhetoric, because allegedly they are less corrupt?
Same shit is happening in Europe with different team colors.
A liberal gay friend of ours literally said to us that he’d vote for [anti-gay far right party] if they had a chance to win against [corrupt anti gay right wing party who had been in power for a a while now], but now he thinks he will vote for [centre right party with dubious credentials], only to stop the BIG BAD WOLF, even though he’s a “leftist”. It makes no sense.
Social democracy, real social democracy is the compromise, and even that’s nowhere near enough in the age of climate cataclysm…
Liberals say I’m not pragmatic… but hey let’s say I have 4 core political principles: who’s the politician who shares at least 2 with me? Who? Why would I vote for 0 matches? Is this the glorious democracy you speak of? For fucks sake, liberals are exhausting… in many ways more exhausting than right wingers.
It is exhausting. Especially like you say compared to right wingers.
Chuds are aware of the fact and will admit that a lot of their beliefs are just the opposite of whatever you think and they have those beliefs to piss you off.
Liberals have the exact same belief but also claim theirs is the rational and moral belief and actually you’re the one being divisive because you don’t agree with them the most progressive policy is to shoot all immigrants (and a few of these annoying lefties) into the ocean out of a cannon. Because they’re pragmatic and compassionate intellectuals.
Like my knee jerk reaction is to sit that person down and explain to them they aren’t a leftist they just want to absolve themselves morally. They are voting for right wing parties, that is mutually exclusive to being a leftist. They aren’t progressive they’re slightly right of center, just like most people, but they recognize that’s a moral failing so they lie to themselves and say they’re a leftist even though they’re thinking acting and voting light a lib.
It’s like all the American libs arguing the democrats are better than republicans on isreal. It doesn’t matter how they word it “the party currently doing a genocide is less likely to do a genocide than the party not currently doing a genocide” is never gonna convince anybody who’s actually operating in reality. But they can’t say “we’ve decided continuing to do a genocide is more important than getting your vote but also if you don’t vote for us we’ll consider that a moral failing on your part which makes us superior.”
But of course then your being divisive and doing purity tests so the only rational response from your friend is to go full blown right wing because you were mean to them, even thoughthat change wouldn’t involve thinking acting or voting any differently.
Truly, you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make them drink.
Liberals have the exact same belief but also claim theirs is the rational and moral belief
Chuds do this too tbh, even more so because they’re claiming they’re fighting “evil”
Chuds deep down know they’re full of shit and will admit itnsonet8mes. It’s the wh9le sartre “never believe the anti semits is unaware of the absurdity of their arguments”
They relish the fact that they just said a bunchnof bullshi6 but they can just go “nuh uh” to any counter argument and watch the lib get mad.
Libs literally believe they’re doing the right thing while advocating for the same atrocities and literally look down on you for suggesting the fact they have the same goals and proposals as chids means they’re the same.
For me it’s the whole “the left is continuing to grow”
I think they mean PSL and DSA and such, these people are (usually…) at least not delusional to think the Democrats can be “pushed left” anymore
That’s absolutely the line constantly trrotted out by liberals and op said that was their friends justification for voting for kamala.
Blue Maga is very real, millions of people not only think the dems can be pushed left, millions more believe they already are left.
sad
But seriously it is painful when someone you know closely is this way.
Thanks comrade, but yeah that is definitely the part weighing on my the most.
I recently heard ‘genocide is a good option because it will promote long term peace’
pax romana
Can’t have war if you genocide all races
More and more it is ending up in a circular argument where I am painted as unrealistic and my rhetoric (leftist rhetoric) is doing more harm than good because it promotes distrust in the only system we have to work with.
As much as I hate conservatives, you can at least level with them on the front of not trusting their government. They end up as hypocrites and fall in line with any real challenge to American hegemony, however, you can at least get them to admit the system doesn’t function well for everyone.
Yeah, but with liberals even if you get them to admit that they just fall back on the stance that “it’s just how it is”, “change isn’t overnight”. No shit it’s not overnight! So why do we keep punting the start of said change down the road every 4-8 years?!?!?
The Matrix is a system, Neo. That system is our enemy. But when you’re inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy. You have to understand, most of these people are not ready to be unplugged. And many of them are so inured, so hopelessly dependent on the system, that they will fight to protect it.
:keanu-whoa:
I need to rewatch The Matrix.
Oddly enough, I rewatched the first one last week haha.
It’s actually so good. All the matrix movies are despite what some would have you believe.
Agreed. The original is the best for many reasons, but every Matrix movie is just very good sci-fi with poignant themes way ahead of their time. The Animatrix is especially incredible, imo. Per a letterboxd review of Reloaded from 2021:
i was lied to for many years this movie fucks
Absolutely. Like I always liked reloaded when I was young because of the action sequences. Then as an adult I was like wait that’s only one good part …
Then as an adult I was like wait that’s only one good part …
Agreed. For lack of a better term, even the vibes stand out in each movie.
The vibes are excellent. I rewatched them all recently and was blown away by the vibes. So strong. Such a sense of itself many films lack.
And I will watch any movie choreographed by Yuen Woo Ping. He knows how to make human bodies fight in the most beautiful ways.
I’m just grateful for my friend who listens to my rants and admits I know way more about it than him.
Unfortunately he’s still just voting for Kamala
Every time we hang out is basically:
ok so I’m not deep enough into the hexbear rabbit hole but what do you propose voting then?
Some leftists will tell you that simply participating in American elections is an endorsement of our two party duopoly/oligarchy.
I’m writing in Claudia De la Cruz personally. Obviously she is not going to win, but I refuse to give Democrats my vote. They talk the talk, but do not stand for anything I agree with. In fact they are hardly bothering to pretend to be “progressive” anymore.
I don’t want tax credits for first time home buyers, I want the state to seize the assets of these corporations buying up all the homes in the country.
I don’t want legalized marijuana, I want the owners of private prisons shot and the justice system restructured from what is essentially slave labor to an actual rehabilitative system.
I don’t want tax credits for first time home buyers, I want the state to seize the assets of these corporations buying up all the homes in the country.
I don’t want legalized marijuana, I want the owners of private prisons shot and the justice system restructured from what is essentially slave labor to an actual rehabilitative system.
And so do I, but every vote that isn’t for kamala is basically a vote for trump, and he’s far worse
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2024/oct/17/trump-wins-elections-outcomes-stakes
My state hasn’t gone blue since 1964 so that argument doesn’t even begin to work on me.
In that case, if you’re sure there’s absolutely no chance for a blue win, might as well vote PSL. In hindsight I should have known it would vary by state.
Write in Hillary
Yeah, I am the insufferable one like that! However, my lib friend is very well read on politics, they just have way more faith in the systems than I do. He also loves to take the “realist” stance as opposed to my idealistic one.
We don’t drink much these day but I do turn into this when I’m drunk. I remember back before we were married, my wife’s best friend used to call me “your communist boyfriend.”
Good thing we don’t drink a lot now, in the current political climate I’d probably jump on the Hamas love train and death to (various evil entities) slogans too hard and get “your terrorist supporting husband” instead.
The struggle is super relatable. I’ve taken to letting my lib friends share complaints with us then when voting comes up mentioning PSL and Green parties. They don’t live in a swing state but still are visibly shocked by the suggestion.
I wonder if it’s possible to convince these people to protest for Kopmala to enact non-Hitlerite policies with the logic of “well, if you’re going to be voting for her anyways…”
I don’t think so… Most of them are too lazy and complacent to do that, they think exercising their civic duty of voting is enough.
More and more it is ending up in a circular argument where I am painted as unrealistic and my rhetoric (leftist rhetoric) is doing more harm than good because it promotes distrust in the only system we have to work with.
Noticing genocide is more socially unacceptable than committing it. Also, even recognizing a system is dehumanizing, don’tchaknow.
Thanks for reading my rant. It’s probably a bit disjointed, but the frustration is boiling over and I needed to vent to the only group of people that seems to understand the hopelessness of being a disenfranchised leftist.
Right there with you. It’s lonely enough already without having to worry about losing friends, and it hardly feels like I’m doing everything I can to fight back against the genociders when I can’t even talk about it with my loved ones or get them on the right side.
Yeah, that’s the extra layer is feeling like I am talking to a brick wall. If it weren’t for the plethora of carrots on sticks that the dems laud over us, they would probably have come around to our side by now.
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and the whole country is on the tipping point of becoming a fascist regime.
Why would I, a red fascist hate this?
because Trump is leading it, and last time I checked, industry deregulation and even more privatization of the public sector wasn’t something the communist values stood for
´because Trump is leading it
You’ve had 4 years to prepare for this. Sounds like you failed
The communist values
Please read a book I’m begging you. Start with settlers
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Stupid idiot ass baby warrior didn’t even post something I could read so stupid was it the mods removed it, birthed from an asshole because you are shit.
You have yet to engage with my arguments or the arguments of many others as contrasted with me who has done so and then taken the liberty to insult you. Crying “oh they’re poor” when all you’ve done is fuck all is lazy. If you want this kickass comeback you learned in the schoolyard yesterday to work, then you need to actually make it have validity. Do us all a favor and take a long walk off a short pier
man up
Eat shit
I dont care
Suuuure
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Jesus fucking christ you are dumber than a doorknob. Go back to reddit where they pretend to give a shit about civility. An ad hominem isn’t “when someone insults you” you massive dumbass, you fool, you bufoon. Go back to school. An ad homimen is when you tie the character of a person (in your case that would be “poor”) to the quality of their argument (in your case your arguments are also poor, though this has nothing to do with you as a person,) as a way to discredit them instead of refuting them. “You are an idiot and therefore your argument is idiotic” <- That’s an ad hominem!
In case you’re wondering this also isn’t an ad hominem, though it’s a fallacy of some kind. Insulting you is just an insult, you hollow log of a person. Learn what fallacies are and eat shit and dieremoved by mod
Porridge farmer lead brain village idiot
People have been making your argument for decades. Every single fucking election it’s widely claimed we’re on the “tipping point”, people everywhere said it last time with Trump, and what did he do when he got into power? Largely just continued the status quo of making everything gradually worse.
If anyone thinks voting remotely matters and they want change, they should vote third party. But as always, I don’t think voting will change anything no matter what.
Take half the fucking effort you put into this “Vote for genociders or get fascism” shit and put it into organising or direct action.
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people constantly claim we’re on the tipping point because we are.
That’s what they said the last time and the time before that and that and that and that and that and that. There’s alwys something that makes it so we just have to accept this rotten dog of a candidate. If the rule you followed has brought you to this, of what use was the rule?
Furthermore whenever the dems do win, what is said of the left? “Oh turns out we didn’t need them at all!” What happens when they lose? Then it is the fault of the left. We were on the tipping point last time as well and the dems have had 4 years to do something about it, you failed. Why should we vote for someone who will do nothing to take us back from the alleged brink we’re at?You had 4 years to get people to vote third party, and you failed.
The country was on the precipice of destruction last election and the one before that and so on. The dems have had decades to pull us back from the alleged brink. They have now had 4 years in power, yet here we are once again. You failed. The dems are looking to lose to Donald Trump, yet somehow we failed? The dems lost a massive lead to Donald Trump, you failed. If you are a realist, then accept reality.
Why should people vote for a party that constantly cries wolf, yet never does anything about the wolf apart from copying the wolfs’ policies, working with the wolf, calling for bipartisanship with the wolf party, bragging about how much more wolf-like they are than the wolf party and so on?There’s plenty of people voting third party or voting uncommited or abstaining from voting. Seems to me it has worked out completely well. I can imagine it’s hard to understand when you are only ever thinking about the current election and never what happened in the past or what the future brings, but most things aren’t done in a few years. I’m honestly impressed with how these movements are developing, considering the amount of ratfucking they’ve been subjected to.
Vote blue, especially if you’re in one of the swing states, and help everyone out like a true commie.
You really do not understand politics, do you?
Kamala isn’t perfect, nobody is, not even you, but it’s currently the best chance America has.
Did you think you had something here? “Nobody is perfect” is the dems ole-faithful. You can’t go pobodys nerfect about genocide.
Trump did bad things. So have the Dems. And sincerely describing someone who actively supports genocide as “not perfect” just shows what a disingenuous lib you are. Your version of “harm reduction” has, for decades, done nothing but emphasize and prolong the harm.
I don’t live in the US either. I just care about people’s wellbeing in general. You should recognise that literally wherever on the planet you live, that organising and doing direct action would be more productive than telling people anywhere that voting matters. What a fucking waste of political energy.
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I’m happy where my country stands at, thanks.
The country is currently, according to you, on the tipping edge of something cataclysmic and you’re happy with that? Lmao
Right, so let’s elect the guy who will do imminent and immediate harm, and a lot more of it, because that’s better obviously
As opposed to the lady who will do imminent and immediate harm, but where dorks like you go outside and fight against it?
I am a realist. The genocide, at least for now, won’t stop, but we have the power to not make it worse. What do you chose?
You’ve been told quite a few times what people choose. A realist would accept the reality of the situation. A realist also wouldn’t have this idealistic dogmatic adherence to decades old arguments about “aw shucks just this one time we need to do it, because the other guy is actually way worse and way different”
In your case the realistic option would be to acknowledge that your candidate has a better chance of winning the election if she stops supporting a genocide, and instead of arguing with leftists online you put your energy towards pushing your candidate to make those concessions. What do you choose?I’m happy where my country stands at, thanks.
There it is. “I don’t care about anyone else, I like how my life is and want the status quo”. Do direct action and organise to help OTHERS, if your country is a super paradise then do direct action to pressure your government into condemning genocide. Sadly I think you won’t ever resort to actually doing something to help.
It’s not worth engaging, really. You clearly know all this and actually just don’t give a fuck.
I do care for people, hence why I’m writing here, in the hope of convincing even one person to vote the right person, since physically going there isnt feasible.
pressure your government into condemning genocide.
what if they already did? the US is such a huge economical power that no-one but themselves can push it towards a better future, and all the third party voters are doing is assuring that the genocide is gonna continue under Trump’s regime (since that’s basically what it is apparently, thank SCOTUS)
I do care for people, hence why I’m writing here, in the hope of convincing even one person to vote the right person, since physically going there isnt feasible.
YOU ARE DOING LESS THAN THE BARE MINIMUM YOU ARE ARGUING WITH STRANGERS ONLINE OH MY GOD AND YOU ACTUALLY BELIEVE YOU’RE DOING SOMETHING! THIS IS FUCKING FUNNY HAHAHAHAHA
If you actually cared you’d spend the freetime you have to volunteer for a cause, the dems need people so go do something for them, since you care so much lmao. This isn’t for anyone, you’re doing this for you, because your brain gives you sweet sweet serotonine when you argue with strangers onlineI know who you consider as people and who dont you consider as people
Based on the TLD of their instance, it’s even funnier for them to say that.
Disclaimer: I’m not from Germany, but do recognise the irony.
Communists are liberals’ enemies why would we help you?
but in the meantime it’s gonna hold together the country
Have you considered that Kamala’s worthless neo liberal economic policy, racist border policy, and hawkish right wing foreign policy will ensure fascism? A vote for for Kamala is a vote for 4 years of stagnant decline and imperial embarrassment that brought about trump in the first place, ripe for a competent fascist to step in
Go on with the downvotes, I don’t care
Libs consider this bravery
Racist border policy?
By voting third party you’re helping the man who built a fucking wall next to Mexico, and you are also helping him deregulate every single industry that’s willing to give him money, creating an economic policy that’s far worse then you could ever imagine. Your vote for a third party isn’t showing any support to anyone whatsoever right now, it’s just helping Trump.
By supporting Dems you’re helping the party that literally helped build a fucking wall next to Mexico, proposed hundreds of millions for expanding it, deregulate every single industry that’s willing to give them money, oversaw the destruction of Roe v Wade, and countless billions on funding genocide and overseas war. The Democrats are trying to create a whole new border agency dedicated to ripping people out of their homes, just to prove how hard they are on immigration. Your support for Dems isn’t showing any support to anyone whatsoever right now, it’s just helping genocide and oppression.
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Yeah and trump is still better than electing a dog with rabies. If your baseline is “here’s a worse candidate” then you can clap for anything. It’s also completely debateable wether he’ll be worse. You are handwaving away several things as being insignificant, that aren’t.
and yet it’s still better then what Trump wants to do.
They deported more people.
Yes, they oversaw the destruction of Roe V Wade, and yet it’s still nothing compared to the anti-lgbtq, anti-women laws that trump will pass once elected
Bills that will pass anyway because the dems don’t give a shit about any of it. At least with Trump people like you went out to fight against it.
Yes, they sent billions abroad for war and you’ll never guess what Trump sent just as much
Do you think this is an argument for the dems? Yes they are just as bad, glad we agree.
Trump also oversaw the agreement to finally pull out of Afghanistan. The Biden regime decided the best way to help afghanis were to freeze all foreign assets. I’m sure the people being ruled over by taleban are grateful they also get to starve and their state has no money to finance renovations.to my knowledge, there wasn’t any major deregulation from the dems, much unlike what Trump wants to do
Apart from the tariffs on cheap EVs and solar cells and the union busting and the decreased requirements for freight trains which have led to seceral catastrophies? There’s definitely way more, I just can’t be arsed to look them up for a person I know will come with some dumbshit
response.so, choose your poison, and be realistic
The realistic option is to not normalize genocide. Voting for someone who is actively commiting a genocide will make things far worse than electing a guy who is like all the others, just a bit more obvious about it. The realistic option is to not give legitimacy to rulers who do these things. The realistic option is not to do something that has only yielded terrible results. Your line of argument has been trotted out since Nixon for gods sakes, and even then it was old!
“That’s the real issue this time,” he said.“Beating Nixon. It’s hard to even guess how much damage those bastards will do if they get in for another four years.”
The argument was familiar, I had even made it myself, here and there, but I was beginning to sense something very depressing about it. How many more of these goddamn elections are we going to have to write off as lame, but “regrettably necessary” holding actions? And how many more of these stinking double-downer sideshows will we have to go through before we can get ourselves straight enough to put together some kind of national election that will give me and the at least 20 million people I tend to agree with a chance to vote for something, instead of always being faced with that old familiar choice between the lesser of two evils?
Now with another one of these big bogus showdowns looming down on us, I can already pick up the stench of another bummer. I understand, along with a lot of other people, that the big thing this year is Beating Nixon. But that was also the big thing, as I recall, twelve years ago in 1960 – and as far as I can tell, we’ve gone from bad to worse to rotten since then, and the outlook is for more of the same.*- Hunter S. Thompson Fear And Loathing: On The Campaign Trail '72
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You have 2 choices that actually matter, and everything else is just “Trump” but indirectly
Please explain how not choosing Kamala is choosing Trump, but not choosing Trump isn’t choosing Kamala
Hold on, I gotta ask a clarifying question. What do you think REgon means when they talk about tariffs on cheap EVs and solar cells? Because your response seems to suggest you think the tariffs are an attempt by Democrats to save the environment and my understanding is pretty much directly opposite of that. Could you please explain what you’re talking about? Thanks
They were starving either way because all of the frozen assets belonged to the rich 1% that controlled the country.
Colonialist mindset. Worse than hitler
“We killed and robbed them and now they are poor”
ITS YOUR FAULT IMPERIALIST
We should directly help the people in need
Your “aid” comes in form of bombs and lectures. Fuck off imperialists
Didn’t read after you failed to engage with the first three of my arguments. Quoting them and then just repeating yourself isn’t really what normal people think of when they think of discussions and the like. To illustrate your shittiness.
He will be.
Oh okay then, glad we cleared that up, it’s not like I illustrated how, but whatever. Have fun never learning anything.
Edit: I saw someone else comment about the tariffs so I skipped down to read that bit… You’re a fucking moron. Quit talking about things you don’t understand.
Those “damn libs” who want to save the planet have made electric vehiclesmore expensive and solar cells more expensive by putting tariffs on them. That’s what tariffs do.
Thank you for showing your ass and furthering my belief in that I was right not to waste my time reading the rest of your drivel. Do us all a favor and see for how long you can hold your breath at the bottom of a lake.
Also Canadian healthcare is free, you should look into it.
I’m not voting 3rd party I’m voting for Hillary, she’s a Democrat
A vote for Kamala in 2024 is a vote for the competent fascist to rise in 2028
helping the man who built a fucking wall next to Mexico
No one helped Trump more than the Democrats. That is on THEM, not us. They
deliberately leveraged their media contacts to prop Trump up and increase his popularity to cult status to ensure he was the nominee to play existential chicken with the electorate. It called the Pied Piper Strategy. They then use Trump as a shield to do their reich wing fascist ratchet effect bullshit anyways - much like you are doing using
to defend getting people on board to consenting to genocide. 
Democrats full hearted embrace of genocidal policies and the Bush/Cheney PNAC forever war doctorine and it’s wealthy bribers and fanatical zealots in the military industial complex is helping Trump. It’s complete dismissal / persecution of peace activists, and looking the other way while state after state criminalized LGBTQ+ rights doing NOTHING while they have the presidency and Senate.
The next will be “oh but they need full control” - look at how useless they are in California where they have a veto proof super majority, the world’s 5th largest economy, and refuse to pass a universal healthcare system (Calcare). Look at when Obama had his and said Abortion wasn’t a priority - or the last 50 years that they could have codified it into law.
Obama campaigned on fixing the Bush Chney disaster and then did everything they did and worse
.It took activists going against the DNC and the DC advocacy orgs like HRC to push lawsuits via grassroots to get gay marraige through. The DC orgs are designed to kick the can down the road as long as possible milking the issue …“being pragmatic” while they go to cocktail parties and fancy galas with your donations. We had to force the Deboer vs Snyder issue. to the supreme court. The GoFundMe page, while inactive now, is still up for historical reasons.
The activists forcing the issue of marriage outside of the “pragmatic change is slow” has become a UofM case study (PDF) DeBoer v. Snyder: A Case Study In Litigation and Social Reform
Biden can stop the genocide by cutting off the arms flow. The Democrats should have been codifying trans rights into federal law instead of letting the Republicans and their pseudoscience fascists go ALEC cookie cutter across flyover country.
was more concerned about making Ukkkraine a burn pit dumping ground for arms and genociding Palestine than the rights of his own people.But at least Michelle Obama gives hugs and chocolate kisses to GW Bush and Liz and Dick Cheney endoreses Kopmala. They’ll probably rehabilitate Trump at some point down the line when their next Frankenstein’s monster they helped prop up needs civility.
Genocide should be red line, not one you compromise with or use Trump as a shield or comfort blanket. And if the Democrats have an issue with people not holding their nose for the unpteenth time because the abusive relationship has gone too far then that is on the Democrats. Simple policy things that they are fully in control of that can change NOW. Kamala Harris has shown no remorse for genocide. She has shown every intention for continued support of genocide.
Then there’s this whole firced Red Scare 3.0 evil Russia / China bullshit they stsrted in 2015 too. Probably a new Lavender Scare to accompany it is why they look the other way o LGBTQ rights under attack. They can fuck off with that. Russia and China are economc competitors they are not our mortal enemy. They want resources? Make a deal rather than spend trillions in saber rattling and arms races. Idiots going to get us all killed.
If they lose then that is on THEM not us. We tried a last gasp of saving the party from itself in 2016 after DECADES of playing the hold the nose lesser evil game. No more. Don’t blame 3rd parties. That’s the fault of Democrats becoming the party of Bush and Cheney. That’s the
of becoming neocons. The whole Nader thing? The Dmeocrats also ran their VP of an unpopular with labor and the left Clinton. Baggage. Then the supreme court, 
, HW bush, 
appointed the son of a CIA director with Cheney, who is now oh so cuddles with the Democrats. So that’s all moot, they became Bush and Cheney anyways - and they will become Trump lovers next.The Democrats will never move to the left again. You must realize this.
If Trump wins - he is term limited. Most likely the Dems will recover a branch in 2026 effectively lame ducking Trump. Then in 2028 you get a non-incumbant election with the dems set up like Obama 2008 was. Even if they do they’ll squander it and learn nothing.
Weird that you didn’t get a snide response. Probably a coincidence
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
man up
Kamala isn’t perfect
Kamala is happily enabling a genocide and wants the American armed forces to be “the most lethal” in the world.
and then you have 4 years to organize and vote for a better party
I heard this before 2012. And before 2016. And before 2020. I no longer buy the argument.
Go on with the downvotes, I don’t care
We here at hexbear can’t downvote. You probably will get/have gotten some downvotes, but they haven’t been from hexbear.
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I’m sick of arguing with people about electoral politics, so let me just ignore most of your response and address only the end, because maybe I can make a positive difference to your worldview there.
The issue with the phrase “man up” is not only that it implies your interlocutor is a certain gender. That’s a bit of an issue, sure, because assuming men are the default humans is pretty misogynist. However, the real misogyny of the phrase is much more insidious than just assuming everyone is a man. What the phrase “man up” does is inextricably tie strength of character to manhood and masculinity. And that’s misogynist tripe. Womanhood and femininity have as much strength inherent in them as manhood and masculinity. Men are not morally stronger than women, so exhorting someone to moral strength by telling them to be more like a man is full on misogyny. Yes, it’s the type that’s so normalized in our culture that you can be forgiven for not seeing it, especially if you yourself are a man (which you may or may not be, I don’t know). But please, excise the phrase “man up” from your vocabulary.
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Hey, I’m sorry, but I need to hammer this in, because brainworms burrow deep and I’d like to make sure you understand yours. The issue isn’t simply that you implied something you didn’t mean to imply, that’s true so far as it goes, but the more important part is what you implied. That’s the problem. If you take away from this experience “I need to write more carefully on the internet so people don’t read anything into what I’ve written” that’s an ok lesson, but it isn’t the one I’m hopeful you’ll learn. My hope is that you’ll come away with something more like “wow, I seem to have some internal feeling that men are morally stronger than women, I wonder where that came from and how I can go about unlearning this feeling.”
I want you to deprogram the underlying misogyny, not just learn to disguise it better, you know? Still, thanks for admitting fault, that’s hard to do on the internet.
Which do you prefer
I prefer the reality where liberals like you grow a spine and understand that genocide is a red line that you can never excuse without selling your soul. The people who Biden is killing are real people with experiences, emotion, families, internal lives, dreams, and soul. They aren’t NPCs or numbers on a screen to be weighed against in some demented cost benefit analysis. To ignore their plight is to ignore your humanity. The hypothetical continuation of the genocide does not excuse your support for the current actually existing genocide.
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I need you to understand that a vote for Trump is what enables Trump. Voting for the party that holds 99% of his positions, will soon hold 100% of his positions when it becomes politically expedient, is not resistance.
And if it’s only 0.01% of the population that understands that the correct thing to do right now is learn how to handle a gun and get organized with likeminded individuals to fight the genocidal fascists, that 0.01% of the population has the right idea. It does nothing to validate the 99.99% that have no morals and believe in nothing. That 99.99% are the ones who need to get with the program.
If you hate us so much, why do you want us to vote? Wouldn’t it be better to convince us to not vote so we don’t fuck you over in your holy battle at the ballot box?
man up
Trump has a very high chance of winning, and the whole country is on the tipping point of becoming a fascist regime.
Check
Can you please use your brain
Check
I can’t believe you just came in here and roleplayed the exact lib mentality that the thread has been about…
Libs really don’t have any self awareness.
Go on with the downvotes, I don’t care
For what it’s worth, Hexbear doesn’t have downvotes, so peddle your Reddit tripes somewhere else please. Also, you do care otherwise you wouldn’t mention it.
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Sorry we just don’t like politicians who enable genocide
Your attack ad of a comment was trash anyway they did you a favor
The morals in questions are understanding that our duty to fall in line and vote for the blue fascist is superseded by hundreds of thousands of innocents being incinerated by the fires stoked in American and German weapon factories. Morals are more important than tactically and short sightedly acting in unabashed self interest you spineless ghoul.
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Is being an apologist for a candidate that supports an active genocide
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“The mods are removing comments that go against their morals!”
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This country is already a fascist state; that you can’t extrapolate that when most of your non-grocery goods that don’t get imported are made by prison slave labor, that you can’t extrapolate when the police lynch over a thousand non-whites a year, that you can’t extrapolate that from segregation still reified through redlining ‘undesirable consumers’ into ghettos all over the country, tells me that you either are a settler, or will gleefully run defense for them from your likely vassal-assed other country.
Which what you mean to say, is that the settler half of Amerika will finally have to live under the same conditions my people do. Maybe you’ll grow a sense of empathy from it. Long shooting, I know; but a subject-of-empire can hope.
Honest question: How do people reconcile their approaches to these situations with what Combat Liberalism instructs? Because Mao says fuck your discomfort and yell at people.
Combat liberalism is more of a list of Mao’s personal grievances in the human condition/behaviour under the label of liberalism than anything else. It’s a short text written in the context of instilling party discipline then anything else.
There’s a uniting theme in all of the behaviors he highlights of a sort of moral flippancy, of regarding a decision as basically indifferent and then just picking the option you want instead of picking what is best. It makes sense to call this self-entitled version of freedom, where you are not obliged to act rightly but merely fulfill some set of requirements and then have free reign in the rest of it, “liberalism,” because that is exactly what many liberal moral frameworks look like, especially the more politically-involved ones (like social contract theory).
Yes, there is a theme that is about subordinating personal advancement (a more liberal tendency) to development of the cadre / party (a more revolutionary tendency). But it is still very focused on that attempt to assert discipline over the cadres/party. Some of the advice is actually toxic to follow in other contexts. For example, I know many proto-MLMs that really take the “you better tell everyone when they are wrong instead of talking about it secretly, that is liberal and advancing yourself” thing to heart and they criticize the crap out of each other to allegedly create “unity” but it actually makes people hate each other. They completely miss how to develop constructive political education in the party because they are interpreting Combat Liberalism as Mao’s Guide to Party Behavior, but it isn’t even that. The meaning of that line is really more like, “hey you behind-my-back shittalkers tell it to our faces so we can hash it out and minimize factions” and not “you should focus on criticizing in full membership meetings and never air a criticism privately or sit in it for a while”.
I will admit that the sparseness of the text combined with the distance in time and space means it’s not the sort of thing you can just throw on someone’s lap like Socialism: Utopian and Scientific, but I think we ultimately agree.
Probably! I think it is fun to read and entertaining to quote but I think the main issues in Western left organizing are substantially different. I definitely keep “no investigation, no right to speak” in my back pocket though, which is from a somewhat similar but more widely applicable work. I swear to God 90% of Western leftists need to internalize that and shut the fuck up (not speaking about you or anyone on Hexbear lol). So many problems in left orgs could be solved if the people who have spent less than 10 minutes thinking about a topic just didn’t jump into conversations to share opinions and then die on a hill.
Related - how can we possibly be less “moralistic” when it’s a moral question of such magnitude as “should people support genocide”?
It’s been awhile since I’ve read Combat Liberalism, but I thought the context of that was for disputes between people in the same party or organization. If it’s someone who’s a friend but otherwise isn’t struggling alongside you to build communism, I’m not sure what the point of being super insistent on ideological correctness would be.
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Different times, a different part of the world, and radically different material conditions at that
Personally I think the takeaway from that text in the imperial core context is probably that of class and party collaboration. Your personal relationships with libs are yours to sort out but under no circumstances work to further their bourgeoisie party project.
I haven’t read Combat Liberalism (and should), but FWIW I think I’d say Mao’s circumstances naturally were also very different in context- it’s one thing to say it in the global south, in genuinely brutalized and colonized countries where the masses can be receptive on some level, and another to say it in the heart of empire, surrounded by all those who have benefited from or see their lot as tied with that of the empire (also with a lot of colonized peoples- but even then with varying degrees of similar issues).
I’d say Mao was right, anyways. Fuck the discomfort… but then also we are all only human. We can yell all we want, I’ve stuck my neck out and gotten into arguments myself, but end of the day we know we’re swimming upstream, perhaps even trying to swim up a waterfall- not to say it can’t be done, nor to support defeatism, but our energy is finite, self-preservation on some level is valid (supporting the genocide however is wholly invalid and those who do will deserve what they get), and picking and choosing our fights is not only valid, but can be the better strategy (finding receptive audiences, using our energy elsewhere or going where we can actually contribute) than butting our heads up against a wall. If seeing industrial genocide cannot successfully appeal to someone’s humanity, nothing will- perhaps the material conditions in the future will be such that they will come to us all the same, or perhaps they will be worn down further still, but what can be said to those supporting, even if due to “lesser evil” bullshit, such atrocities?
It’ll only take a few minutes (for real, it’s less than 1000 words)! Link
Thanks! Having read it now it is- interesting. Good and unquestionably principles everyone should seek to follow, yet also of course a call to constant self-crit and what I’d call irreligious, tangible, revolutionary virtue.
I’d never really considered such behaviors liberalism, but it’s food for thought (and I don’t disagree with it). Of course, considering all that is listed, there is no one who doesn’t err or who will not err in due time, but it’s a means of bettering yourself, society, and protecting the integrity of the revolution or of any org, I suppose. It’s definitely something that will be sticking with me.
IMO it is not a useful text. It was a discipline document for militarized cadres that strained itself a bit to claim that things that undermined Mao’s preferred direction were liberalism. It is also primarily about intraparty discipline.
All of american society is set up to sitfle your voice. You can be uncomfortable and yell at them but every other person they know, all of the media they consume, and every interaction they have throughout the day is set up to reinforce you’re just a crazy hippy or something and the correct answer is to consume and subjugate.
That’s not to say you shouldn’t do it but the best that you can hope for is they brush you off and then encounter some especially stark contradictions in the next few hours that makes them consider what you said might have a point.
But then the 6 o clock local news, 2 hours of pr8metime TV and then every late night show is gonna try to convince them that’s just some weird coincidence.
But that brief moment where they thought “huh this sure seems exactly like what that looney lefty of a friend of mine described earlier” is about our only on ramp and it’s important that idea is planted before they encounter a contradictions and some chud tells them its because of immigrants.
Mao does not actually say yell at people and burning all available bridges in self-righteous fits of anger instead of searching for ways to interact constructively with people is closer to being what he regarded as liberalism, being that it can be described as “venting personal spite”. That segment, like most of them, only applies to intraparty affairs, but that’s why I said “closer to”. All he says about extraparty interaction is that you should continuously agitate and propagandize.
Change never arrives because the people who own the rest of us suddenly feel charitable.
Fascism has never willingly or peacfuly conceded.
a lot of people want to believe someone is coming to save them.
100%
It takes a special kind of cynicism (which i have attained) to understand that most people gives a shit about each other, especially the people with any sort of power.
Dunno what level of comfort your friend is at, but it really does affect how they react. It’s really hard to find real connection for those of us living in Anglo countries.
I feel you. My convos with libs seem like I’m talking to a computer chat bot, the empathy and concern that I’d expect from a real person isn’t there. Honestly I usually just limit my lib convos to something simple. For real connections, I find that people become better the further you go from the group in power. So look at middle class cishet white men, and go 180 from there. It’s pretty hard to find a genuine person with 3 or more of the above characteristics, although I’m sure that exceptions exist.
My convos with libs seem like I’m talking to a computer chat bot, the empathy and concern that I’d expect from a real person isn’t there.
I feel exactly the same way. It’s called the empathy gap and it’s a symptom of racism. This is how they can manage the mental gymnastics of supporting genocide and thinking of themselves as good people. Brown people just matter less to them.
Food for thought. Thanks for the links.
I just tell libs that if they really want Kamala to win, GOTV is historically much more effective than arguing about it. It’s my thought-terminating cliché that masks my apathy for their cause with the vaguest sentiment of goodwill.
Yeah, I have had zero luck so far finding anyone in my life that feels the way I do. I am accepting the fact that I will need to hold my tongue unless I want all the smoke that comes with upsetting lib sensibilities. I have cut plenty of chuds out of my life already, but I know my lib friends are leaps and bounds better and don’t deserve the axe yet. However, they are still not at the level they need to be in order to understand or accept my positions on things.
The thing that kills me the most is when I am told that my positions are detrimental to the greater good. Which in their misguided minds is merely keeping the status quo intact.
It’s especially miserable because like I said, they are a gay couple who fears the GOP’s outward anti-lgbtq rhetoric more than the DNC’s covert anti-lgbtq rhetoric. The specific trigger this time around was the Texas governor that blew a dog whistle about gender in sports. My friend brushed it off as “one democrat doesn’t represent all of them”, which sounded way to much like thin blue line apologia at this point.
At the end of the day, I am realizing that more people than i thought are actually just run of the mill libs. There is nothing I can do really besides wait for conditions to slide further right and hope they realize it too.
fwiw people are totally out there, even among the libs, that at least give half a shit, or have already given up on the dems. I had a friend come to me last winter, concerned that their (at the time new) SO was on the “fuck biden I aint voting for that old whiteremoved” train, and I had the distinct pleasure of telling them she was right, voting dem does essentially nothing. I was nice about it but like… yeah, good, okay, she sounds based
FWIW I’d say your lib friends deserve the axe they’re voting for (not that you need to axe them off socially yourself). I get the fears, not AmeriKKKan but from another Anglo country, and as an ethnic Chinese (no PRC citizenship/ties or I’d be packing and planning to leave already lol), queer and trans, coming from an immigrant family and being a naturalized citizen (as a kid) myself, and of course being a commie… well shit’s bad. But those who want to toss others under the bus to literal industrial genocide deserve whatever they get if you ask me- and today it’s the Palestinians and now the Lebanese, eventually down the line if they don’t come under the empire’s crosshairs first, it’ll be (already is in some considerable level) you and other leftist dissent, or the various other demographics (of fellow citizens) already being stomped down/colonized within the empire…
Hopefully they can learn and become better people. I get how it is, about not wanting to cut them off fully (though also not wanting to talk, that shit is nauseating).
There is daylight between the parties on LGBT issues, IMO. Republicans have placed it as a central pillar, with promises to persecute, and we all know the dems won’t go to the mat over this. All it will take is a poison pill slipped into a committee and the dems will say they had no choice.
Dems aren’t generally looking to actively persecute queer people, they’ll cede ground, but the party as a whole isn’t building around it. This IS a distinction. There are donors and notable people that the dems may not want to give up readily (Queer orgs donate and volunteer in numbers, and Hollywood actors are mixed in with enough queer people that it’s personal for some of them).
Totally understand that, and that is where the erosion comes into play. Dems constantly being ready to cede ground eventually leads to the floodgates opening when the balance of power shifts harder right.
Yeah, it’s buying time at best
Yeah I’ve been hard in on the protest voting / voting for PSL course of action. But the anti-trans ads are giving me serious pause. I know for a fact the Dems don’t care about queer people, but they also aren’t campaigning on killing them, so there’s a genuine distinction there.
I know people don’t want to endorse genocide, I wouldn’t expect anyone to cast a vote in support of Kopmala due to some moral obligation, quite the opposite. But I think calling the people who are voting for K*pmala genocide apologists or endorsers of genocide is completely wrong. Voting is absolutely an endorsement, don’t get me wrong, but these people aren’t voting to throw Palestinians under the bus in exchange for not being killed themselves, they genuinely believe that there is no choice in a electoral context to vote against genocide, so they’re just choosing the genocide option that doesn’t involve them. Many (relatively) of these people would likely risk themselves to stop sending money to Isn’treal if they felt they had the option. But they’re convinced they don’t.
But, how are we supposed to build socialism if we keep voting for the lesser evil? If we don’t even attempt to get actual leftists into positions of power? How are we meant to show people that electoralism is a waste of energy unless we actually push the people and organizations we care about?
It’s like a big blackmail scam, and the whole point is to convince people there’s no other options but genocide. And the most horrific part of it is that it’s true that there’s no other options, but only because everyone collectively believes it.
So if I have a friend who actively despises Kopmala but votes for her, I’m still going to talk to them. I don’t really approve of it but they’re not an inhuman monster. They’re just… housebroken.
These people are genuinely pissing themselves levels of scared. They know they have a gun to their head and they’ve been convinced through a lifetime that trying to take the gun will always end in them dying. And they think that no matter what they do the person holding the gun to their head will kill a bunch of other people regardless.
if they are quiet about it and vote on election day, I honestly don’t care all that much.
I just can’t stand the people who just immediately accept months out from November that “these are the candidates and these are their policies and you can do nothing about it so I am going to vocally support Kopmala and browbeat anyone who says they won’t or is critical of her”
who fears the GOP’s outward anti-lgbtq rhetoric more than the DNC’s covert anti-lgbtq rhetoric.
malcolm x’s foxes and wolves
king’s negative vs positive peace
Ya you don’t need to cut ties with libs, maybe do hobbies and other stuff together. But hold your tongue similar to how you would at work. In the end of the day, they’re not your comrades. Maybe drop a word here and there to try to radicalise them, but don’t hold any hope up.
I’d suggest to join an org, and try to have more poor friends if that’s possible. I know it ain’t easy though.
Yeah, I have no intention of cutting ties with them, but have realized that holding my tongue will do wonders for my own mental health as well as the relationships that are based on more than just politics. Like I have said, I dont keep many people around me that dont believe in the same core values, it’s just that i put more weight on them in my day to day life. I love treats as much as the next lib, but I don’t willfully ignore the damage done in the process of getting the treats. I act in a way to limit that damage even if it means less treats.
Joining an org is an option, would need to be more digital tho, I dont like the public lol.
Can I ask why you don’t want to do public? IRL friends are the best.
Anxiety mostly, but I don’t think its very healthy to keep succumbing to the feelings. COVID is also the huge factor, but I still mask everywhere I go, so I can solve that problem easily. So it comes back to social anxiety that I do definitely need to work through.
I have no advice on Covid, but I just wanted to mention that the anxiety might be worth it, especially since the anxiety will go away eventually but the relationships should at least last somewhat longer if they are worth anything.
Fair, dealing with social anxiety kind of requires being social I guess haha.
