Asking after the privacy debacle and manifest. I’m not keeping up closely, but iirc Firefox is the browser recommended because of Ublock. After the privacy data issue I’ve noticed broken trust from Firefox users, recommendations in favor of switching browsers, and predictions saying Firefox is going downhill fast and that their forks won’t be maintained for much longer.
So I’m here asking the seasoned sailors’ thoughts, aye. Is this just a storm passing by or are you really considering jumping ship?
I’m not interested in anything based off Chromium, and I don’t really like the idea of going with a Firefox fork much either. You’re not only trusting them to actually care about your privacy and security, and you’re not even just trusting them to actually catch and fix all of Mozilla’s shenanigans as well. You are also trusting them to constantly stay on top of all the latest security patches. There aren’t really any Firefox forks I trust with all 3 of those things at once. Even if there was, there are certainly no forks of Firefox that have anything even remotely close to the capacity necessary to maintain a web engine on their own, so you’re still trusting Mozilla to keep Firefox updated and secure for your fork of choice to even have a chance.
Until a new browser with a new engine comes along that actually lets me use the full uBlock Origin there’s not really any other option besides Firefox that makes sense. At least to me.
I’ll put my vote in for LibreWolf. Happy to help anyone with a ‘i can’t get librewolf to…’ or ‘this site is broken on librewolf’, etc to help you tweak it.
But i keep both installed. Libre for my daily driver. FF if there’s a site that i absolutely need to be identifiable for.
I will gladly take you up on this, not sure if it’s possible: trying to get the Toonami Aftermath site to work on librewolf
Interesting. I’m surprised it works on any browser.
From what I can see, when www.toonamiaftermath.com loads, it gets a guest id from api.toonamiaftermath.com.
www.toonamiaftermath.com has a well configured SSL chain per https://www.scyscan.com/check-ssl/result/www.toonamiaftermath.com.
However, api.toonamiaftermath.com is missing an intermediary certificate authority per https://www.scyscan.com/check-ssl/result/api.toonamiaftermath.com. Note how there’s only 1 record in the chain at the bottom of the page. It should resolve all the way upto ISRG Root X1 or X2 per https://letsencrypt.org/certificates/
This is on the server admin to fix up.
If however, you like to live dangerously, you can force LibreWolf to ignore the error (Keep in mind, this is the browser saying “We can’t confirm that this server is who they say they are”).
In LibreWolf, open the dev tools panel. (Press F12) Click onto the Network tab. Then load https://www.toonamiaftermath.com/ In the Network panel, you should see one record in red for https://api.toonamiaftermath.com/ trying to load bundle.js with the error NS_ERROR_ blah blah SEC_ERROR_UNKNOWN_ISSUER. Double click that record and it’ll open a new tab showing you FF’s/LibreWolf’s “Warning: Potential Security Risk Ahead” page.
Click on Advanced, then “Accept the Risk and Continue”. You might see the service response, you might only see the screen flicker. In any case, reload https://www.toonamiaftermath.com/ and repeat for any subsequent errors. It should challenge for every subdomain/package.
Once done, the site should work for you. You might need to manually click play depending on your other browser settings.Good luck. You’ll need to occasionally re-accept the SSL errors. As mentioned, there’s a problem with the trust chain. The site owner likely hasn’t set it up correctly, and should be causing it to fail on all browsers. You might have a cached chain somewhere that’s allowing it to work on that particular browser.
Sir/Madam, you are doing the lord’s work.
Yeah that succinctly describes the jank experience I’ve had with it. First, just thank you for all of this. Second, it’s working today, woo! Very stoked about this, again tysm
https://www.privacyguides.org/en/desktop-browsers/ and https://www.privacyguides.org/en/mobile-browsers/ will likely have documentation that is updated within a day of any relevant news being available
It seems the alternatives are worse but I’m definitely trying out one of the Firefox forks
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If Linux can be developed, then a public fork run the same way for browser can too. It’s possible just no interest yet.
A huge chunk of Linux development is subsidized by the hundreds of corporations which depend on it and pay developers to maintain things. There is no corporate interest in developing and/or maintaining an alternative browser engine when chromium already exists and dominates the market.
Yea I thought of that and have no real answer. But should that be solved, without advertising income, it would change everything
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What other problems has Firefox had? Everything I search sends me to this recent controversy
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I would say no. With the recent debacle the writing is on the wall. Mozilla is not taking our privacy seriously. So, I have switched away from vanilla Firefox.
I would recommend using a fork instead: LibreWolf, or Floorp, or Zen; and Ironfox on Android. Mullvad Browser is another option.
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Ironfox breaks some things for me. I prefer fennec on Android…
Floorp is kinda sketchy these days, it went closed source, then maybe reopen sourced. I would say Zen is the better pick. and on Android Fennec is a great Privacy fork of Firefox.
Not maybe. It is open source. It never went close sourced, Dev made it source available till they figured out the future of the project.
Also I won’t recommend zen cause it’s in beta. It’s way too unstable and the dev is no better at handling situations like above. But if you dont mind stability, zen is definitely really good feature wise
How come I never see people recommending Waterfox? Is it just not popular or is there some major flaw?
That’s the one I’m using and it looks virtually the same to Firefox. I’m not sure if there’s some issue with it either, I was scouring the comments for someone recommending it.
Just switched to Floorp. Loving it.
I’ve been using LW & Mull/IF before the outrage-TOU update and while they’re great for me I wouldn’t recommend them to everyone. I still keep FF as a backup and many ppl should continue to use FF for the time being as it was JUST A TOU update…for now.
this is the most balanced policy.
I’m not sure why it seems no one else is recommending this type of backup-for-rainy-day strategy.
ppl are silly
vehemently agree!
I’d ditch Mull, and go IronFox. It’s a fork of Mull that is actively maintained.
i know i use IF.
Fuck Mozilla, is all I’ve got to say.
The browser project dedicated to open web standards steered by a compromised non-profit or the browser project dedicated to undermining the traditional web browsing experience steered by the largest advertising company on Earth … Let me think …
It’s incredible unfunny to read people here on Lemmy (or in the Fediverse in general) talk about dropping Firefox for Chrome or a Chromium browser. it’s like complaining that your country is going wrong by voting Trump.
All those people leaving Mozilla, I can only assume only read headlines and not the actual articles because they’re just blowing a nothing burger out of proportion.
To be fair nobody asked Mozilla to serve a stupid and detached statement without contextualizing what they meant or try to achieve.
[Edit] it feels like they’re asking for the outrage. You can’t just drop assurances of not selling data without explaining if your crowd is privacy aware. You can’t take broad licenses from your users if you don’t explain for what they are for. Having plaintext comment next to the lawyer speak would have fixed all that and none of this had to be this shitty. [/Edit]
And this is why I assume no-one read the articles; because they did explain themselves.
I read them, still want to leave.
It also includes a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox. This does not give Mozilla any ownership in that content.
It’s still in the current version of the TOS without a direct explanation which can be found anywhere close to it. This is plain bad from a communication stand point.
All that we’ve ever asked from Mozilla is three things:
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Focus on the performance of your browser so that it is not a hog.
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Upkeep privacy
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Keep it secure
Out of all of those things, Mozilla fails at all except maybe the last thing. We didn’t ask for AI implementation. We didn’t ask for Firefox accounts. We didn’t ask for whatever feature flavor of the month that Mozilla got a hair up their ass about that they just had to throw into the browser. We asked for simple things and Mozilla overshot them. How are any of these features meant to uphold the values once held by Mozilla?
If you want to talk about a nothing-burger, think of all of the reasons that Mozilla had danced around to excuse itself by throwing these things in. And the cherry on top was the Terms of Service. Truly, they are tone-deaf.
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well Firefox may enshittify, it’s still the best option imo, certainly better than chrome or anything chrome based. even better if you use a privacy focused fork like librewolf.
there are other options out there, you can look into qt browsers, those were the basis for webkit browsers. hopefully soon things like servo/verso become more useable.
Sucks they’re not close to as secure as chromium based browsers. Where’s my privacy and security first browser ☹️ Vandium is the only thing close to that. Can’t wait for desktop version.
Firefox is more private than chrome, chrome had more security updates, but Firefox is not far behind by any means.
Like I said, security is what I’m talking about. Brave browser, as much as I dislike the company is the best compromise when looking for both.
What about the Mullvad browser?
I don’t like their lettering feature at all, and I don’t like that I don’t have the option to disable it if I want.
Great for anonymity but has the same security baggage that gecko based browsers havem
As @[email protected] said, default Firefox is still more private than Chrome. Also, if you want security (and more privacy) on top of that, you should look into LibreWolf. I’ve been using it for a few years now and it’s fantastic!
I don’t know if it is due to some sort of baggage from using the Mozilla Sync service or what, but librewolf without Mozilla Sync is faster for use than Mozilla Firefox is for some reason.
I only swapped over a few days ago, but the speed up was big enough for it to be apparent to me.
Just not what I’ve read from security engineers or other sources like GrapheneOS devs. A lot of the flaws on mobile also apply to desktop. Just turns out engineering man power is a huge deal for secure browsers.
What you read is true, and also total nonsense.
There is not too much point in discussing privacy and security without a threat model.
So once you put your threat model into focus, you can discuss how to mitigate those threats and pick the right browser for you.
Well, I’m talking about my use case which involves my own threat model. Regardless if it matches yours or not, it’s still a complain I can share about the current state of browsers.
I’ve never heard of qt browsers, or servo/verso. I’ll give it a look, seems like I have a few rabbitholes to explore
Servo is an experimental browser engine developed by Mozilla Research using Rust to enhance performance, safety, and parallel processing in modern web rendering. The project showcased features like a concurrent layout system and asynchronous JavaScript execution.
Around 2017, Mozilla shifted focus to other projects and laid off several developers, leading to the gradual abandonment of Servo. However, a dedicated community later formed the Servo 501©(3) nonprofit to continue developing Servo’s technology and ideas.
Verso is an experimental browser built on top of the Servo browser engine. Currently, both softwares are experimental and pre-alpha developer software at best.
IIRC some parts of that project were integrated into Firefox rendering engine. Was it layouting or something?
This included the Quantum project, when portions of Servo were incorporated into the Gecko engine of Firefox.
Yes, some parts of the project were integrated into Gecko. But the project itself was abandoned. The original goal was to replace Gecko, not to patch some parts of it.
The UX of Librewolf sucks ass though. Want to change this setting? Well you can’t, too bad.
It doesn’t suck, it’s just not intended for casual users, which is why I chuckle when I see it recommended. That and Mullvad browser. I’d pretty much just recommend TOR over those, if you’re really going for strict privacy.
For something that strikes a good balance, I use Zen.
How the UX of librewolf is different from the UX of Firefox?
A lot of options are disabled for “privacy reasons”. There is no halfway approach. It’s all or nothing with their strict privacy settings.
For some, that’s perfect. For others, who want a more tailored privacy experience, it’s not a really great option.
I still recommend it with a little asterisk:
Disable a bunch of shit in it or download a privacy focused fork of it (like Librewolf)
That asterisk is a problem though, having to go through and make it secure is an issue. What if you miss a setting? What if you misunderstand a setting? None of it is particularly upfront and easy. It doesn’t ask you when you first install it to set this stuff up, it encourages you to just get stuck in and start using it straight away.
It’s not too complicated for a nerd whose hobby is computers or someone who has studied computers, but for the layperson it’s too much.
That’s why Librewolf is so good. It’s secure by default, with all the settings toggled to privacy and you can ease that off if you wish, for convenience or whatever.
Firefox essentially can’t seem to decide if they want to be FOSS or capitalist, that’s an issue.
And based on the behavior of other shitty applications and devices what if an update silently changes one of those settings back to a problematic state? If they aren’t there to begin with I don’t have to worry as much
To be fair Mozilla doesn’t have precedent for this behavior but they also didn’t have precedent for this whole nonsense that started this drama a month ago. Things change
The other fun part is when it updates and changes your privacy settings.
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The problem is not laziness, that’s what a nerd whose hobby is computers would do. The average person is not searching for videos to learn how to toggle the settings of their web browser, ffs. Firefox should be secure by default.
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Ah, I see, you’re a contrarian who just wants an argument. That’s not really my bag so this will be my last message.
Yes, the likelihood of the average person downloading Librewolf is slim. Using or not using Librewolf doesn’t make someone lazy. Not reading and toggling every setting in Firefox doesn’t make someone lazy either.
You’ve just explained that to make Firefox secure you need to watch some video of someone that you hope knows what they’re talking about. What if they miss something? What if they’re talking shit? I know, shocking, people lying on the internet, but it happens.
Firefox is a big name browser used by many people of varying backgrounds and technical ability. It should be secure by default. It is not. Librewolf I recommended to anyone reading this thread, which is probably someone tech savvy enough to try a different browser. But not all people are that tech savvy.
The root issue is Firefox not being secure by default. If there was no profit motive for Mozilla it likely would be.
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You’re talking about security, but really, none of the privacy questions are about technical security of the product.
“What if you miss a setting?” Then they’ll give you article recommendations or send your search query to the search engine you’re targeting in the first place. They’re really a long way from what you can call a security issue, or sharing personal data with random third parties or data brokers.
if they want to be FOSS or capitalist
I really don’t see any basis for this take. It’s not about picking one of two extremes, and the most extreme niches in those.
They create FOSS, and look for privacy respecting partnerships and investment so they can keep it going.
They added ToS because they’re integrating services, like their synced/backed up browser data and other respectful integration.
That’s all a long way from malice, or significant problematic behavior. And you still have more choice than on the other biggest alternatives.
I don’t think it is the best we could have, I would like it a bit different too, but the way you make it out to be is way overblown if not wrong.
Firefox with like 10 different settings checkboxes unticked through its settings to disable phoning home, prevent sponsored suggestions, prevent recommendations, etc. + ublock origin extension installed, obviously.
It used to be just an install and go ordeal. Now you have to have all these caveats. I used to send technical and interaction to Mozilla but given their terms changes I can’t be confident in them with even that much information anymore.
Final thought is I don’t see what Mozilla’s endgame is. It costs a lot of money to develop a competitive and impactful web browser, I understand that much. Where are they supposed to get their money from? Well. I don’t get paid millions a year to solve this problem, but it seems pretty obvious the current leadership have made their minds up to make Firefox yet another advertisement browser.
For example from me, because I like their relay function.
You mean the Email relay? There are great alternatives like SimpleLogin or Addy.io. Both have their own browser extensions, but you can also connect them to Bitwarden and use that for browser integration.
Didnt know that about Bitwarden.
Very neat. Thank you~
I switched to https://librewolf.net/ on Desktop and https://gitlab.com/ironfox-oss/IronFox on Android.
Using this as an opportunity to promote the LibreWolf community on Lemmy: [email protected] as well as their new Mastodon account: @[email protected]
I’m not affiliated with them btw
I’ve been trying ironfox but it crashes when i tap “customize homepage”
have you experienced this?
Me too! I’m using graphene, are you?
yeah, on graphene.
hmm can’t find mention of a bug for this combination. barely even the two mentioned in the same webpage.
I’m also on GrapheneOS running IronFox and customizing the homepage works fine for me.
maybe it’s caused by graphene+ironfox+some other setting or other app
Iron fox was updated over night for me and now no more crashing.
Is Vanadium not as ideal compared to Ironfox? I’m new to GOS
According to the devs vanadium is preferred for security, something about Firefox not having comparable sand boxing (?). Not sure, they wrote in length about the reasoning but at a certain point my eyes started glazing over.
I’ve been using Firefox for a long time on desktop and mobile, so when I switched to graphene I just kept with it.
I may try to switch over to vanadium though seeing as I’m already in “switching” mode.
I tried Vanadium when the install was fresh. The adblocking is just not that good… For example, on one of the sites it blocked the ads, but left out the giant HTML elements they used to be in.
If you use android, GOS or not, you are using chromium webview anyhow. So using a Firefox browser is just adding on. There is no way around that issue until a proper non chromium WebView is available (gecko is not). But before that happens we will more likely have decent linuxphones instead of android. Vanadium is way more secure than any other browser , only competition would be bromite, also chromium based. Firefox on mobile is light-years behind vanadium security wise, no excuse for not sandboxing. https://grapheneos.org/usage#web-browsing
I just tried now for the first time and no it doesn’t crash when I press “customize homepage”.
Same, I’m done with Firefox / Mozilla…
Librewolf, Waterfox, Floorp seem like viable options.Let me add FireDragon, a Floorp fork with librewolf and other changes.
