Shout them down in every space, make them embarrased to think the stupid shit they think.
If we don’t embarrass and correct them now we will have to kill them later when they come for our friends and families.
Or Hawaiian shirts. Man, I love my Hawaiian shirts and I was not happy when they were briefly associated with some nonsense fucking Civil War 2.0 bullshit. I’m very glad that particular stylistic movement fell apart.
Boogaloo Boys were strange, they seemed to be a bunch of loosely affiliated extremists from every corner of the political spectrum (although concentrated in certain corners).
It seems like they were accelerationists.
They were a bunch of fucking nerds cosplaying fascist revolution. Dustbin of History.
It’s bad enough they basically own my entire demograph.
I love how butthurt they become when you call them fascist. They’re perfect fine invading spaces they don’t belong in, but the moment somebody labels them correctly, they lose their shit
Does that go for liberal or philosophical ideals like free speech?
I come across a bit of rhetoric identifying free speech as a right-wing authoritarian cause, arguing that they “claim, twist, poison, ruin” it, so it’s fine to give it up and no longer defend it.
Those rhetoricians seem to have a skewed or ahistorical disregard for the advances in political philosophy from the enlightenment era that got society out of the dark ages, away from authoritarianism & toward political plurality & liberal democracy. Freedom of speech was a foundational development & its growth enabled the civil rights movements that followed.
Yet according to the rhetoric, it’s a problem now that right-wing authoritarians claim it as part of their cause. They’ll just let them claim & define it, and now that free speech is wrong (since they let right-wingers “have” it), it’s okay to limit & undermine it.
One might think they’re right-wing authoritarians in disguise trying to dupe everyone into threatening the foundations of liberal society. Whether or not they are, there’s a good chance they’ll show up here possibly in response to this comment.
Is there a name for that type of rhetoric or the people who argue it?
Anyway, it all seems like capitulation to me. I think letting fascists claim such philosophical ideals is a mistake.
deleted by creator
Free Speech is the right to have and express opinions without being repressed by the government. Yelling fire in a theatre is not an opinion any more than harassing people with racial slurs or other forms of flatulence.
Nobody is giving free speech to fascists. Ignorant assholes are misappropriating the term to justify their disgusting behaviour and they’re the only one’s falling for it.
The (direct) harm principle of free speech has been recognized since at least J S Mill. It’s reflected in legal limitations on incitement of imminent lawless action (falsely shouting fire); incitement of violence; defamation; discriminatory acts that objectively deprive peaceful access to rights, opportunities, or resources we are entitled to. It does not restrict merely offensive conduct that bothers.
Are you referring to harassment in the looser sense of merely irritating conduct or in the stricter sense of personally targeted conduct that is unwelcome & objectively harms or deprives peaceful access as mentioned before (often through persistence)? We don’t have a right not to be offended.
Freedom of speech is specifically for speech we dislike including much that you listed. It’s also for speech to oppose that, which could be taken much further instead of trying to compromise it.
People who support only “free speech” they agree with don’t support free speech at all. They either never understood free speech, or believe it’s not worth it, thus give it away to the authoritarians exactly like I criticized.
I guess we can let them keep Tesla…
this goes for most ideologies, really
No, it really doesn’t. Nazism is uniquely disingenuous and predatory by its nature.
They aren’t predators. They’re parasites.
Nah, other ideologies create things and can do more than just appropriate.
Fascists haven’t created anything cultural since Leni Reifenstahl. And she was a documentarist.
For Fascists all imagery and symbols are merely empty signifiers for nostalgia, a mythologised past, and a sense of belonging.
Nazis can have Trapt. That’s what they can have.
I agree with this. That singer is a mega douche anyway. One of the most hilarious things I’ve seen was a few years back when he was trying to beef with Ice-T on Twitter, and Ice just kept calling him “Mr. Trapt” and it sent him off the fucking edge.
They can have nothing.
I’m willing to let then have Nickleback.
The joke you think you’re making isn’t funny actually.
Let them have nothing
You seem fun.
I’m okay with letting them have Christianity though.
Not real Christianity though. Not the one where people feed people and help others. Don’t forget Prez Carter and Mr. Roger’s were both that kind of Christian. They can have the Jerry Falwell style bullshit.
But my childhood church said that Carter and Rogers weren’t real christians. Mr Rogers never would have advised I follow the bible’s instructions to marry my rapist, for example.
I’ve heard “cherry picking” used a lot to deride christians for not following the bible, but I absolutely want people to be fake christians and only follow the feel good parts. I don’t want people to be devout and take things on faith, I want them to question what they’re told. I don’t want the real christians who follow the bible as closely as possible. I want them to acknowledge that the bible has some horrible stuff in it that nobody should listen to.
You don’t need Christianity to be a good person. And it has enables too many people to do terrible things. Not sure you can split it into real/fake.
I don’t. But some people do. If it brings out the good in them, where’s the harm? And yes, there is real and fake. Real is following the actual actual teachings, fake is using them for self gain.
“Real is following the actual teachings”
I think I’ve heard this one for another religion, didn’t end up great for the people (especially women)
I thought we were talking about Christianity. You can move goalposts, but that’s a different game.
If you want to defend pedophiles, there’s truth social you can go to.
Are you seriously saying Mr. Roger’s was a pedophile?
That seems fair, christianity has done enough in terms of sexism, racism, homophobia, genocide, pedophilia, … no need to point out others religions
The one where the sacred text explicitly says “no other texts” but everyone decides the various biographies (that they like) of the prophet get to be included as canon too?
You also don’t need Christianity to be a bad person. There are many other non-religious excuses for doing bad things.
They can have nothing.
Nazi punks FUCK OFF!
You got one downvote. That asshole is either in the wrong discussion and doesn’t know their music or is a Nazi cock gobbler and needs to wipe the orange off their lips.
They already tried to take punk and punk said “no”.
I don’t think they really ever steal cultures like that?
Which culture did they ever take and appropriate?
They’ve stolen and appropriated every symbol they have, from the swastika and the iron cross to pepe the frog.
Swastika is not a culture. A cross is a cross. Pepe?
Swastika is not a culture.
If you have a Wiki link or comment, curious if any culture has ever been stolen.
(just speaking to parent commenter here, not making a declaration - trying to understand the perspective & outta my element)
I’m not sure what you mean. What I’m talking about is from the original post. Nazis won’t take over satanism, black metal, punk, beer(wtf!!?) or anything else like that. It doesn’t work like that.
Gotcha, thanks.
Are there historical examples of non-Nazis stealing culture in a really full way? (okie lemme Wiki that in the meantime btw)
Transparently: curious to assess what would constitute cultural theft by your standards. I’m not married to anything in this topic, so don’t have any canned attack on my clipboard or anything heh. And I’ll learn :)
My understanding is that a group infiltrates a culture to the point the culture becomes synonymous with it.
Otherwise there is no real point to it. Of course there are a lot of nazi people listening to hard rock. They are usually young men that would listen to hard rock no matter what their political view. But you can’t say hard rock is Nazi.
Football perhaps, maybe football away games. All the trouble that some hooligans cause abroad. Thankfully football might be too big to fail, but they do give it a bad vibe at the worst of times.
Football? I don’t think people think of Nazis when they watch football
Then you need to do a little bit of reading and then come back.
I can do no reading and still be 100% right that people watching football are in large majority not Nazis.
Ah so you’re missing the point then. Is it ignorance or purposeful, I wonder.
Maybe you should work on the presentation of your point. Or maybe you should work on your listening skills and try to understand my point?
Or is it purposeful, I wonder?
I’ll take your imitation as flattering.
It’s the entire point about Nazi appropriation of subcultures that you’re missing, not any single point I’ve made.
I don’t think people think of Nazis when they see runes.
Then that’s out of ignorance.
Skinhead culture.
Ok, but that’s the only one and even there, the presence of nationalism was there almost from the start.
How about the republican party in the USA?
Even the swastika was co-opted by them.
That’s not about over taking a culture.
Yes it is.
It’s not the same as expecting a group to take over punk rock.
You’re right, it’s way more dangerous.
In the US, Norse Pagan is getting kinda white supremacy-y.
The ADL didn’t call Elon’s salute a hate symbol, I think we can rule out their expertise at the moment. Also: “Non-racist pagans may also use this symbol, so one should carefully examine it in context rather than assume that a particular use of the symbol is racist.”
If a Nazi says the sky is blue, that doesn’t make it green
But here’s another possible source, from a location that would know.
https://sites.uab.edu/humanrights/2021/04/02/uncovering-hate-revealing-not-so-secret-hate-symbols/
Im pretty sure I’ve heard the term „goth maga“ before so there is that…
Edit: and I just looked it up and now I feel sick. They already have a website and everything. So yeah, there is that.
You’re underselling the cringe. It was “dark, gothic MAGA”
That’s not gonna stick. Maga are not cultured people. They don’t listen to music, they don’t delve into self reflection, they aren’t thinking about meaning and the universe. There is no art there.
Sure there are a few people here and there, that will make a website, but that’s not gonna hold.
The OG Nazis were very anti art. They called it degenerate. It’s just the same old player piano roll playing into infinity with nobody in the seat.
Literally everything in the original post.
Punk Rock and black metal? I don’t know, I listen to a lot of that and I get rarely hear any Nazis making such music. Of course there are bands like that, but there are also some gay Nazis and we aren’t taking about Nazis appropriateing gayness.
You listen to a lot of black metal and are not aware of the Nazi problem? Come on some of the most well known black metal bands have Nazis in them everybody knows varg is a nazi.
Black metal has a whole nazi subgenre NSBM you have to be blind to not realize black metal has a nazi problem.
Then I’m blind. I don’t know what to tell you. There are also gay Nazis, but that doesn’t mean gay people have a Nazi problem.
They’re not comparable. Being a Nazi is a choice, like listening to Pantera. Being gay is not a choice, like being born with brown skin.
No comparison will be completely comparable. I’m trying to picture that the op is absurd.
Nazis don’t take over and steal cultures. They don’t take over any musical genre and just because there are some nazis that like anime, doesn’t mean anime is Nazi. That’s just simple a fallacy and I can’t comprehend why there are so many people arguing with me about it.
This is different than any group having the potential to have Nazis and you know it.
When burzum one of the most well known black metal bands has a Nazi as its sole musician and its just accepted along with many other bands having straight up self admitted Nazis there is a fucking nazi problem. Most genres of music are not like this. This is like saying oh black metal isn’t anti-Christian every group of people has christian haters there are only a few church burnings no big deal.
The first wave of black metal didn’t have as much Nazis as the 2nd wave the Nazis infiltrated
black metal is not inherently nazi but it does have a lot of Nazis in it black metal still has a nazi problem.
Nazis do steal cultures they have been doing it since the beginning the swastica wasn’t originally a symbol of hate the Nazis took it
Yes it is. I can compare gala apples to kanzi apples.
The reason so many people are arguing with you about it is that you are wrong. You should accept that first, and then you can grow as a person. It’s quite liberating.
Skinheads and oï weren’t nazis at first (and still aren’t for some part)
In some places, the SHARPs are the only skinheads around, which is nice.
And still aren’t for a big part.
Miniature wargaming… 40K is especially fascy.
They’ve tried for punk subculture.
Been pretty successful with metal subculture.
Online nerd-subculture.
I’m sure there are many more… They’re in the op pic after all.
So Nazis are taking miniature wargaming?
Unironically supporting the supremacy of the Big E, purity of the human species, and fascism of the Emperium. Like folks missing the irony in Verhoven’s Starship Troopers.
That doesn’t make any sense. If I write a sci Fi story about space Nazis, that doesn’t mean Nazis are taking over literature.
I don’t think the person you’re replying to is accusing the authors of being Nazis. There are people out there who will support fascist characters in their favourite fictional universes, and when they go to social events like tabletop tournaments they’ll bring a lot of talking points that are very close to fascism with them
Yes, that happens in all areas and situations in life, but that has nothing to do with Nazis infiltrating anything.
I wonder if maybe the phrase “Nazis infiltrating” is ascribing it too much intention in your mind?
People with awful views on the world appear in all sorts of hobbies, you’re right, and that’s sort of what I mean by co-opting or infiltrating; it might not always be a concerted sneaky plan, but these people turn up in spaces with other people and are so disagreeable that it pushes everyone else away.
Yes. It’s been quite a big thing last 10 years or so.
They can have a video game, but only this one puts down a copy of Superman 64
Yeah don’t let them have the swastika either.
Wait… I’m hearing it’s too late for that. Damn.
Is there a conservative punk rock movement?
What do you think “Nazi punks fuck off” was for?
I thought it was for the conservative/neo-nazi/fascist fans I didn’t think there were actual bands.
dead kennedys made it their opener at live shoes because neo nazis would show up to their concerts
the bigger thing right now is people being purposefully obtuse and treating “punk” as the same thing as “counter culture.”
conservatives are using this argument to state that they are the REAL punks because they are anti-establishment (while somehow holding all branches of the government but whatever)
in their mind punk people change their political ideologies to whatever is the opposite of who is in power, and so clearly all existing punks had to flip to the other side the second obama was elected or something.
(I’m a second generation punk on both sides and my whole family would curb stomp these asshats)
Conservatives have never and will never be the punk, because punk is a counterculture movement against cultural conservatism, not who is in office at any given time. Punk has always been about cultural freedom, and conservatism is about cultural restriction.
One of the best examples of conservatives’ superficial understanding of counterculture was during the 2020 elections in Philadelphia, when some Boomers wrapped themselves in flags outside a polling place and danced to RATM “Killing in the Name”. They heard the words “fuck you I won’t do what you tell me”, and decided that it represented THEM, while discarding the rest of the lyrics and the entire meaning of the song.
They do this with all media, from music to books to movies and TV. Their understanding and interpretation of art begins and ends at the surface level.
It almost made me cry with joy when racists in UK were opossed by classic anti fascist punk guys with spiked hair during the riots last year. I hade no idea these guys were still around.
The Red Warriors need to make a comeback.
You’re a purebred punk?
in the same way that a child of two goldendoodles is a purebred goldendoodle i guess lol
I hope you’re smarter than a goldendoodle.
Yes.
It’s exactly as mid and soulless as you’d think.
I’m guessing they aren’t very self-aware either.
They never are
Like the broader skinhead movement, Oi! was originally just a punk subgenre, but now a lot of people only affiliate them with fascists. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oi!
Testing link correction
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oi!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oi!
Ah it wanted the hyperlink syntax, actually seems sound design
Damn I love Lemmy, this would get OP banned on Reddit … just the truth.
If you happen to want to express similar sentiments with comrades, use signal.
Glad to have you here :)
It feels like old reddit
Tbh Black metal (awesome as it is) has a lot of ties to Nazi movements. Back when I was first getting into it I bought myself a Burzum shirt, because I only had a vague idea of Varg being somewhat of a controversial figure. I thought, how bad could this guy really be? Well… He is B A D. Despite a lot of this kind of music still being a guilty pleasure of mine I have ventured into anti Nazi bands such as Neckbeard Death camp, who are really vocal about kicking Nazis from the scene. That being said, traverse black metal paying heed to your step, for ignorance can end you up with neo Nazi band merch.
Probably every single thing that you like is also liked by a few Nazis around the world.
There’s a significant difference between “Nazi’s like something I like as well” and “Nazi’s are involved in making this thing that I like”.
How many must be involved in making it? Lets say for a music genre? Probably we should be taking about percentage wise?
Pause a moment and consider what are trying to accomplish with this argument.
Black Metal is not a Nazi genre and I don’t think anyone was actually making that claim. However, white supremacism and Nazi sympathies are common enough in the genre that it has its own scene to the point where it could even be considered a subgenre. It’s even known as National Socialist Black Metal.
The line is definitely blurry when it comes to some bands being labeled as NSBM when the band itself appears to be or even asserts they are apolitical. This makes it difficult to confidently make statements like “this is a Nazi band” or “10% of Black Metal bands are Nazis.”
But that isn’t the point of this thread; the point was “Nazis are overrepresented in Black Metal, so listener beware because you might find yourself sporting a t-shirt that advocates whites supremacy and cruising around town blasting neo-Nazi anthems.”
This isn’t about how many Nazis it takes to make a Nazi music genre or if people from opposite ends of the political spectrum are allowed to enjoy the same music. It’s about being aware that musical tastes can be hijacked to get people to listen to, or even defend, ideas they wouldn’t normally.
Yes, I agree. But also it’s not a coordinated takeover. Sometimes there is a theme overlap, which attracts (in this case) nazis.
I’m not suggesting that as a whole “one Nazi makes something in the genre, and now the genre is ruined”.
However, if you’re not a Nazi, it would be prudent to establish whether or not the creator, (regardless of genre or medium) is also not a Nazi. Especially if that medium/genre has a reputation for attracting that type of crowd.
I understand. I thought that the original post is saying that nazis “steal” the genre as in - it’s theirs. I was explained that its about basically what you said.
Man, fuck Varg. What an absolute waste of a human and an absolute stain.
