He’s a true man of reason and rationality. I respect Penn for that!
Well, eventually.
I got to meet him in Vegas. He was really nice to a nervous nerd. Now I’m even more impressed he has the courage to change his beliefs in public.
A sign of true intelligence is the ability to change your opinions after consideration and evidence. Penn always struck me as a very intelligent man.
Yeah, they’re really nice guys. I got to go up on stage for one of their shows and participate in a trick. We went to a lot of shows on that trip (seven, i think?), they were the only ones that stand outside the exit and greet ever person leaving that wants to meet them. They sign autographs, take pictures, etc. with hundreds of people after each show. And they stopped to talk to my friend and I for a couple minutes as we left and Penn thanked me for participating and let me keep a prop from the act as a souvenir. Great dudes.
The souvenir is a good example of the libertarian aspects of their show. It was a metal card with the bill of rights on it, with the 4th amendment (the freedom from unwarranted search and seisure) highlighted in red. The premise was you should put it in your pocket when walking through the metal detectors or scanners at TSA at the airport. When the machines go off and they question you about out it, you were meant to pull it out and snarkily go “oh sorry, that’s just my bill of rights”. It was a good for a bit of a laugh in theory, but way too obnoxious to actually do in real life. I packed it away in my carry-on instead. I still have it in a keepsake box somewhere.
I used to practically idolize Penn and Teller and had all their books and STILL use their card-forces and other goofy, effective performances with friends. It made me a legend with friends and family.
I lost track in adulthood but am glad to see that Penn didn’t turn into a grifting chud like so many from the time, and practiced what he preached in using critical thought and self-examination.
I’ve always considered myself a libertarian, but I’m coming to realize I need to find another word. I used to be able to explain that assholes were ruining the name, but now the assholes outnumber people like me by too much.
I think the real turning point was when Jo Jorgensen said, “It is not enough to be passively not racist, we must be actively anti-racist,” and then she had to walk it back because the libertarian party was so fucking racist. Like, that’s not even a political statement. It’s a moral one, and it’s one I agree with.
Then when the Libertarian Party changed their stance on abortion, I was done with them. I clung to the lowercase L label, but at this point it doesn’t seem worth it anymore.
I just think the government should be limited to things that only the government can handle. Policing? Roads? Business regulations? Those are all things that can only be handled by the government. Restrictions on what kind of stove I can buy? Restrictions on what I can put in my body or how I dress or what my kids can read at school? Those are all bullshit.
I guess it helps that I align with Democrats on most of the major issues now, but I still won’t consider myself a Democrat.
Stoves are a great example of why the richest among us want to push libertarianism. You see the freedom to buy a gas stove. They see the freedom to make products that are one penny cheaper but kill their users.
Libertarianism and anarchism in general fail to account for sociopaths who are willing to make others suffer for their own gain.
Stoves that kill their users should be a violation of the Harm principle. If this isn’t hyperbole then please provide a link to libertarians advocating this — I’m curious to see if/how they’ve carved an exception or otherwise addressed it or weaseled out of it; please link.
Literally one comment up bud, that I responded to.
Libertarianism is pleasure worship.
Slaanesh approves of this message.
South Park guys too.
Politics so bad, you made the comedians who were mocking both sides in the 2000s apologize.
South Park guys too.
Source?
That’s not what that episode is about…
At the end of it the boys make their own agreement with ManBearPig and refused to act against climate change in exchange for RDR2 and something else I can’t remember
The episode was commentary on how we’re still making the same mistake and not addressing the shit we need to because it would cause minor inconveniences.
Like, you just completely missed the plot…
Did you miss the part where all the characters realized Al Gore was not lying about ManBearPig?
AND THEN decided that RDR2 was worth passing the buck to the next generation… just like the generation before them had done?
At the end of the day it’s a comedy show. You wanted a montage of them making the word better?
I prefer we all get back to the pile
Either you replied to the wrong person or don’t understand what anyone else is saying
Penn Gilette has always seemed to be driven by a level of honesty and compassion and valued the freedom to choose where to direct that compassion. I think earlier on he viewed other libertarians as having the same level of honest compassion as he does but over time it’s become more and more clear that libertarians are overwhelmingly selfish rich white guys who don’t want to be called Repuiblicans.
I mean in the early 2000s he was calling bullshit on the hysteria over the vaccine autism link saying the alternative of kids dying to preventable diseases is so much worse. He even gave the tenuous link a benefit of the doubt and accepted that even if they did cause autism,t he alternative is so much worse.
When I was younger I called myself a libertarian. This was progression from a somewhat conservative family, with my ideal that people should be left to do what they want as long as it doesn’t harm others. I eventually progressed towards a leftist mindset and now consider myself an anarchist. Same idea, except libertarians mostly want no protections and are pro-hierachy, which leads to a lack of freedom not more freedom. If companies are free to do what they want they will use their position to remove the freedom of workers to make choices freely, for example.
I still hold most of the same ideals as I did then, as I’m sure Penn Jillette probably does too. I just have a better view of the consequences of the policies that they push for.
Edit: reread this and it comes off as accuaation. Im not accuijng you, just typed the thing in second person.
Often l have found that libertarians aren’t so much pro hierarchy, so much as blind to the role they play in the existing heirarchy.
It seems common to not turn a critical eye to yourself to see where you actually fit into the scene of things, and missing that you are in fact doing harm yo others by being ignorant of the impact of your actions is super on brand.
Libertarianism always felt like 2/3s of the way there, where the only remaining domino is to recognize “wealth is a thing I have because of circumstance… If someone else had this wealth, what would they do with it, and if they had Elon Musk billions what would that look like?”
There aren’t many people who are willing to evaluate their entire political decisions and come to the conclusion that they were wrong. Even fewer who will admit it publicly. Even fewer still who will accept responsibility and then do something about it.
Of the people I have respectfully disagreed with, the fact that he’s come around is a huge testament to his willingness to be humbled and corrected.
There aren’t many people who are willing to evaluate their entire political decisions and come to the conclusion that they were wrong
I doubt that his ideology actually changed much, but instead he just realized that the Libertarian Party didn’t actually match it like they claimed to do.
The New Hampshire libertarians went full tea party and dragged the rest down with them. I never expected to see anti LGBT rhetoric from a party that enshrined gay rights in their charter way back in 1972, at a time when the Democrats and Republicans were holding hands and chanting “God hates fags” in unison
Yeah I remember when libertarians were “I want a good old fashioned mom and mom Marijuana farm where they defend it with machine guns if they so choose”. And back then my beef with them was climate change requires everyone to work in tandem and is an existential threat. These days, libertarians are Republicans who know to be ashamed to call themselves that
I never thought they were a viable option for taking one of the two main party slots, but I thought they had some good things to say and their voice should be heard. Now they’re just part of the far right noise machine.
DAE DEI IS BAD???
No, LPNH, no I don’t.
They’re not even real NH people-- after the internet was invented all these freaks found each other across the country and made a pact to move to NH. Then there were enough of them to implement all the absolute stupidest of libertarian ideals in one place (not that I have much hope for even the best of their ideals to succeed).
They essentially astroturfed a party and made NH look like shit. Which is why this sweaty mutant is talking about toaster licenses.
Was that when a bunch of libertarians flooded a town as new residents, dismantled the municipal government and ended up being overrun by bears because they didn’t lock up their garbage cans after dismantling the requirements to lock up garbage cans?
The libertarian party used to be considerably different as well. It certainly became something different entirely around 2012-2016.
All the Koch sucking the party did.
he viewed other libertarians as having the same level of honest compassion as he does but over time it’s become more and more clear that libertarians are overwhelmingly selfish rich white guys who don’t want to be called Repuiblicans
I had a similar progression myself when I was in my teens, maybe even early 20s.
The basic principle of libertarianism is appealing: mind your own damn business and I’ll mind mine. And I still agree with that in general — it’s just that a single generality does not make a complete worldview. It took me a while to realize how common it is for self-identifying libertarians to lack any capacity for nuance. The natural extreme of “libertarianism” is just anarchy and feudalism.
In a sane world, I might still call myself a libertarian. In a sane world, that might mean letting people live their own damn lives, not throwing them to the wolves (or more literally, bears ) and dismantling the government entirely.
I’m all for minding my own business, but I also acknowledge that maintaining a functional society is everybody’s business (as much as I occasionally wish I could opt out and go live in a cave).
The core political belief I hold is that so long as you are not directly harming someone else, you should be free to do that. That said, I have a lot built up on that.
I do not extend it to corporations or government. I believe that regulation is undoubtedly necessary for a functioning society.
And with laws, nuance is in everything. Nothing is ever so black and white to have a zero tolerance policy.
Why limit it to direct harm? There’s tons of easily avoidable ways to indirectly cause harm. The most obvious to me are about our natural world: taking anything in an unsustainable way deprives others of opportunity, up to and including their ability to feed themself. Reckless hunting or fishing, poisoning water with agriculture runoff, introducing invasive species for personal gain or through negligence, even just cutting down all the trees around you can have loads of consequences with the impact to animal habitat and increased soil erosion.
Indirect becomes nebulous. At what degree of indirect harm do we set that limit. Almost every action we do may cause indirect harm to others. It might be better phrases as “physically” harms someone. I don’t want to get into someone doing something to themselves like taking drugs and restrict it solely on the basis that it will hurt their family and friends to see what happens to them.
I use it as the core base of my beliefs, but that doesn’t mean I don’t think that freedom divests them of any responsibility for their indirect actions. It’s the default position until something convinces me why it should be restricted or outlawed.
I also limit it to individuals working alone. Once they work in groups and organize the damage that can be done is different.
My indirect harm litmus test would fall along the lines of like an OSHA style philosophy of regulation, for example for any kind of ledges we generally require rigid hand railings. If someone got hurt falling off a ledge at my workplace sure I didn’t do anything to cause it, but I’d still be on the hook for their injury because I didn’t take the required steps to reasonably prevent unnecessary injury.
The perverse ideas that money is speech and corporations are people can make a lot of simple common-sense statements suddenly completely insane.
I support free speech. Money is not speech.
I support personal freedom. Corporations are not people.
Thanks for the link. I’m not up on the latest in anarchist philosophy. The last meaningful work I read on the topic was probably In Defense of Anarchism by Robert Paul Wolff.
The basic principle of libertarianism is appealing: mind your own damn business and I’ll mind mine. And I still agree with that in general — it’s just that a single generality does not make a complete worldview
The problem is obviously that nobody lives in isolation. Everyone takes actions which impact other people.
If there are going to be laws, then the government needs a police force and a judiciary that are big enough to enforce those laws. If there are going to be companies, the government has to be bigger than the biggest company, otherwise it won’t be able to effectively enforce anything. The bigger the biggest company gets, the bigger the government has to be in order to be able to enforce the laws. But, big government is antithetical to the libertarian philosophy. If you want to limit the size of the government but still want government to be able to enforce laws, you need to limit the size of companies. But that’s a regulation, and government regulations are antithetical to the ideas of libertarianism.
Arguing for the idea that the government should generally let people mind their own business as long as nobody is getting hurt, or that consenting adults are knowingly and willingly consenting to being hurt, that’s fine. Same with the idea that regulations shouldn’t be overly burdensome. There’s always going to have to be a line drawn somewhere, but it’s fine if you tend to want that line to be drawn in a way that allows for more freedom vs. more babysitting by the government.
The ridiculous bit is when libertarians try to argue that some extreme form of libertarianism is possible. Anarchy is certainly possible, but it isn’t something that most people, even libertarians, think is a great plan.
The extreme forms of Libertarianism or Anarchy are only possible if everyone engages in good faith. They have no built-in protections against bad actors. Someone wants to divert a river for any reason? Sucks to be downstream.
Anarchism can. Anarchism is not the stupid “no rules” thing the media portrays. It’s a lack of hierarchy, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have government, rules, and protections. In fact, I think any Anarchist would agree they’re required or else people can be exploited and lose their freedom, or things like your example can happen. We should just do it in a more cooperative form, not with a ruling class making the rules for us peasants.
How can rules be enforced without a heirarchy of privilege? What stops someone from saying “I don’t consent to being told what to do”?
To use a real world example of anarchism in action, shopping carts in a parking lot. I’m doubtful anyone has said “you have to return your shopping cart to a cart return” but the generally people do return their shopping carts. There’s also people in vests that come around and clean up the parking lot of loose shopping carts. Sometimes people might offer to pass off a cart they just finished using to someone else, or maybe even snag and extra errant cart on their way to cart return. There’s no heirarchy, no authority on high dictating the rules, just people doing their thing and generally following the rules but there is someone who is paid to make sure things get cleaned up when the inevitability of stupidity happens.
One problem with libertarianism and the other selfish philosophies is that humanity absolutely cannot survive at all without a massive amount of cooperation.
Assholes who think they can do it on their own are completely delusional.
If you eliminate everything from your life that required the cooperation of another human being, it’s likely you’re naked, starving, and freezing to death.
"Oh, I can hunt for food.’
Really? With just your bare hands? Maybe your naked ass will get lucky and nail a squirrel with a rock, but what are you going to do when a mountain lion decides you’re the squirrel?
Even if you manage to make some rock tools and weapons, you didn’t figure that out on your own. Someone told you about it.
Knowledge is the biggest advantage humans have going for them. Without sharing knowledge that others discovered, most people wouldn’t last long enough to matter.
Too damn right. Community is what makes humans strong. Eventually from those communities we form institutions which build nations, which may even build empires and coalitions.
A human alone is just potential food for something else.
Agreed. If right-libertarianism could work at all, they’d need to be on the frontlines of boycotting companies that do bad things.
They claim that the government doesn’t need to force desegregated lunch counters; people would stop eating there until that place either changed or went out of business. Alright. Are they going to be the first ones to stand up and boycott companies that do anything like that? Because from what I saw, they were the first ones to say “they technically have a right to do that” and then do nothing. Almost like letting them get away with it was the actual point.
Gilette seems to have caught on to this trick at some point.
I feel the same with Unions and the broader Right. Like the whole point of Unions is they’re the “free market” equivalent of government regulation. If you’re pro free market but anti-union, then you’re not actually pro free market, you’re just pro exploitation.
Absolutely. It’s no coincidence that anti-union sentiment is common among right-libertarians.
They don’t just think companies have the right to do that. They also think companies have a right to create restrictions that prevent you from doing anything. If you go to a protest you may be fired, for example. It creates a situation where the ruling class can prevent dissent because you need food, water, and shelter at minimum, and they can take that away if you are a dissident.
Commenting just to keep this particular comment in my history to write about later. I think it’s a backbone for a labor bill rights as well as a form of ranked choice voting
Yeah, I don’t have any problem with libertarianism in theory. Pro-civil liberties, anti-racism, anti-war, pro-choice, pro-guns, free markets, etc. I disagree with the value of some of it, but I can see why someone might thoughtfully and sincerely come to that sort of rationale. I’ve never really had a problem with Penn’s (and Teller’s) views because of that.
But the reality is that the majority of modern libertarians are just narcissist capitalists that do not like rules or laws that restrict them from doing anything they want. That or, way worse, they’re Ayn Rand ideologues who genuinely believe that self-service is a moral imperative, charity is immoral, poverty is personal failure, human life is measured in productivity, and the sick, poor, or malformed should be left to whatever fate the market gives them. Those types are some of the worst people on the planet. They see a wealthy capitalist as inherently a leader and role model and think he should be unconstrained from accumulating more wealth without concern for society, employees, or individual rights. We’re living in the light version of their ideal, and it gets closer to that ideal every day.
Good for him!
His name is Rebo.
As a big fan of P&T, this is a major win.
Not to mention the veganism which is also closely related to rejecting fascism.
https://vegnews.com/magician-penn-jillette-goes-vegan-for-the-animals
(Full disclosure: I saw an interview where Penn says he went vegan for health and weight loss. But maybe he’s evolved to animal liberation as well.)
it’s gives me hope to see this. i made a career change recently from one that’s so utterly dominated by libertarians like this meme that it’s costed me jobs and inflicted trauma upon my psyche.
i’ve also been trying to drop the carnist behavior that i learned as a child; and also for health & weight loss goals; and learning that someone with a high profile that’s familiar to me, has done it successfully is helpful; thanks for sharing this.
Hey, you got this. Meatlessness is a difficult switch but once you get recipes and habits built up it gets easier. At this point meat doesn’t smell like food to me and while there are things I miss, it’s not like I worried it would be when I started
Didn’t know he was vegan. Weren’t they both guests at the chefs table on Hell’s Kitchen recently? Do they make anything vegan on that show?
Not to mention the veganism which is also closely related to rejecting fascism.
I mean…
Technically a vegan did shoot hitler in the head that lead to the end of WW2…
But that’s a weird way to say hitler was a vegan.
Hitler wasn’t a vegan. He ate eggs and dairy products, according to his doctor.
deleted by creator
Near the end of his life, Adolf Hitler (1889–1945) followed a vegetarian diet. It is not clear when or why he adopted it, since some accounts of his dietary habits prior to the Second World War indicate that he consumed meat as late as 1937. In 1938, Hitler’s doctors put him on a meat-free diet, and his public image as a vegetarian was fostered; from 1942, he self-identified as a vegetarian.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler_and_vegetarianism
This does not contradict what I said? Vegetarians and vegans are not the same thing. Vegans do not eat eggs or dairy (or honey or any other product derived from animals). Vegetarians have no such restriction, they just don’t eat meat.
Do you have any idea what they meant by:
Not to mention the veganism which is also closely related to rejecting fascism.
Then?
Because dietary restrictions is not an effective way to fight fascism.
And I don’t want to get in a pedantic argument about modern terms applied to 80 years ago. Although it seems that’s what you really want to do
Not every response to a comment is an argument. This one looks like it was providing some color and additional detail to your comment. Calm down.
Can we just let them make what was clearly a joke and move on with our lives?
Today’s Hitler only eats at McDonalds.
Vegetarian* FTFY
IMO petrochemical textiles are a way bigger moral and existential problem than wool or even leather, so while there are many genuine concerns with the livestock industry I cannot support “full” veganism. We might get there eventually with biodegradable plastics but we aren’t there now.
I’d like to see them do an updated Bullshit series. They really lampooned veganism at the time when I was on the fence about it, and even then I knew they weren’t giving it a fair argument.
I enjoyed the series, and rewatched it recently but I did disagree on several episodes/topics.
I’d love to see a new series though.
IIRC they never did anything specifically on veganism. They have attacked various diet fads and in particular (S07E06) the organic food hype. They definitely picked on that guy who was getting in peoples’ faces about raw-food-only, but to be fair that guy was also acting like a prick. In the episode on PETA, Penn repeatedly comments on “skinny vegetarians,” but also consistently represents himself as a “fat [carnivore] fuck,” so there’s that.
It’s been many years since I watched the entire show, so maybe there’s a bit I don’t remember. But they definitely did not do an episode devoted to it.
I still think the word libertarian should be reclaimed by the left. Fuck the ancaps who took it. Westerners are too scared of it, despite it originally meaning a socialist. Places where white peopl aren’t the majority have no issue with the word. My Filipino family understand that liberty is just another word for freedom, but think socialism is just state communism. Socialists will never win against capitalist propaganda without violence. Too many people hate anarchists and “socialists” but are not at all afraid of the principles of anarchist socialism. It needs better branding, and the word libertarians was literally designed for that. And the ignorant western liberals believed them and hate the word libertarian because of it instead of being educated.
You… should really educate yourself on what libertarianism actually is. Just because the root word “liberty” is in there does not mean it is a socialist concept.
In fact, libertarianism is kind of anti-socialism as one of the founding principles is individual autonomy. That is in direct opposition to the idea of social ownership of the means of production.
Ironically, you are highlighting what led to a LOT of people self identifying as libertarians in the early 00s. You hear a word that sounds nice to you and figure that must be a good thing. When it is actually in direct opposition to your implied claim of being pro-socialism.
Now, I COULD go on a long rant about how the vast majority of modern socialists ALSO don’t actually understand the political ideology they claim to support. But that just makes people pissy.
You’re just factually wrong. The word ‘libertarian’ was first used to describe a political ideology in 1857 by the French Anarcho-Communist philosopher Joseph Déjacque specifically to differentiate his ideology from the mutualist anarchism of Proudhon.
The term ‘libertarian’ took off in popularity in France in the 1880s when the French government began to suppress anarchist newspapers. They just switched to using the word “libertarian” rather than “anarchist” to get around the censor. This is exemplified in the weekly newspaper founded in 1895 called The Libertarian (Le Libertaire in French).
The anarchists in the Russian Revolution and in the Spanish Civil War called themselves interchangeably ‘anarchists’, ‘libertarians’, and ‘libertarian socialists’.
The term didn’t come to be associated with classical liberalism and right-wing ideologies as it is today until the middle of the 20th century. It was a specific attempt by right-wing American political philosophers who held an allegiance to Locke-style 18th century classical liberalism, but felt that the term “liberal” had become too associated with left-wing (within the American context) politics.
Here’s a quote from 1955 from the libertarian writer Dean Russell:
Many of us call ourselves “liberals.” And it is true that the word “liberal” once described persons who respected the individual and feared the use of mass compulsions. But the leftists have now corrupted that once-proud term to identify themselves and their program of more government ownership of property and more controls over persons. As a result, those of us who believe in freedom must explain that when we call ourselves liberals, we mean liberals in the uncorrupted classical sense. At best, this is awkward and subject to misunderstanding. Here is a suggestion: Let those of us who love liberty trade-mark and reserve for our own use the good and honorable word “libertarian.”
Here’s a quote from the libertarian writer and philosopher Murray Rothbard from the early 1970s:
One gratifying aspect of our rise to some prominence is that, for the first time in my memory, we, ‘our side,’ had captured a crucial word from the enemy. ‘Libertarians’ had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over.
Here’s a quote from Ronald fucking Reagan in 1975:
believe the very heart and soul of conservatism is libertarianism
Modern libertarianism in the context of American politics is synonymous with classical liberalism and conservatism (up until the MAGA movement co-opted conservatism and just made it synonymous with fascism). But in the US prior to the middle of the 20th century, and outside of the US until much more recently, libertarianism was synonymous with anarchism and was very much a leftist ideology.
Your historical analysis is nicely summarized. But words change meaning, they always have. ,"Don we now our gay apparel"used to mean festive clothing. Well I guess it still does in a different way, wtf do I know lol. Carry on.
Queer used to be a slur (and still can be) and before that it had a different meaning, but it has since changed again to be reclaimed by those it was intended to hurt. Words change, of course, but that must mean they can change back too. I’m not saying we must take the word back, mind you, I’m only suggesting it. I personally think it’s a good idea but I’m not gonna make anyone who doesn’t want to do it. I also am very aware of the challenge to reclaim it, I only brought it up because it was relevant to the thread. Penn Gillette is most likely a left-ish libertarian and doesn’t even know it, but obviously no longer associates with the term for understandable reasons. I am wishing he didn’t have to abandon the term libertarian and instead wish American society was able to comprehend left libertarianism.
I’m not arguing anything about the modern meaning. I’m providing historical context as to where the word comes from, and correcting the previous commenter who was asserting ‘libertarian’ had no connection to socialist political theory.
One could argue that many modern right wing libertarians are closer to anarchism than some of their left wing equivalents. Back when I was on reddit there was much discussion of what they called watermelons - green on the outside, red on the inside. Meaning they presented themselves as anti authoritarian but in reality wanted to use the power of the state to enforce their ideal version of societal freedom. There are also differences in how the words are understood today in different places - Europe, the US, other places in the world. I did commend your historical representation btw.
One could argue that many modern right wing libertarians are closer to anarchism than some of their left wing equivalents.
Only if you don’t understand what right-wing libertarianism is. It is 100% reliant on the state monopoly on violence and coercive authoritarianism.
Only if you paint with broad strokes. They are more diverse than that, and some are very anti government. The same is true of those more on the Left.
I already addressed all of that in the other branch (its cool, you probably started typing that before I posted) but, the super short version:
As you yourself acknowledge, the “libertarian” part of that is related to the “anarchist” part of “anarcho-communism” which came out of the anarcho-capitalist movements of the era.
And, over the past 150 years or so, modern libertarians have continued to embrace ideologies of personal liberty that align more with the anarchist movements. Whereas modern socialists have largely decided that The State needs to provide for its people (with lots of arguments as to what The State should actually be).
Insisting that “libertarianism” should somehow be used by socialists because they came from a similar root movement is like insisting that all socialists should ACTUALLY call themselves feudalists because you can draw a line from the various philosophers back to concepts from feudalism (and beyond). It ignores WHY different philosophies and forms of government were constructed but it sounds much better, I guess?
And if the argument is that you consider yourself a libertarian because of your pseudo-anarchist leanings and don’t like that other people ALSO consider themselves a libertarian becuase of their pseudo-anarchist leanings… tough titties?
My argument here is that when the term ‘libertarian’ was created it was specifically used by leftists to describe a leftist political ideology and the only reason it is not still associated with leftist politics is because right-wing conservatives very specifically and intentionally “stole” the term in the middle of the 20th century.
Further, in the right-wing context, 'libertarianism" is synonymous with classical liberalism and conservatism. The idea that right-wing libertarians embrace the ideology of personal liberty is just plain horseshit. They embrace personal liberty for one person and one person only: themself. They want 0 personal liberty for anyone other than themself, and if you tell them they are not allowed to restrict the liberties of others, they take that as an attack on their personal liberty. Modern right-wing libertarian political “philosophy” is no more developed than the political ideology of a toddler.
I don’t have any personal attachment or desire for myself or other leftists to use the term libertarian. The petulant children can have it.
No. Right wing politics is 100% about “personal liberty”… for them.
It is the problem with trying to implement theoretical socioeconomic and political models in reality. Because WE can all agree “nobody should be enslaved”. But… who actually WANTS to dive into the sewers to break up the fatbergs?
Because personal liberties inherently conflict. You want to be free to let your dog roam wherever he wants. I want to be free to let my cat out on her catio without fear of neighbor dogs attacking her. Which of us get our personal liberty respected? And so forth in terms of religion and speech and choice of labor and so forth.
Thank you for the summary, I got in a discussion on the same point some time ago, it seems that people who grew up in the USA culture associate libertarian and right wing in a very deep way.
Id just like to add that in french nowadays, we have two words for libertarian : Libertaire for the left-wing anarchist meaning, and Libertarien for the USA right-wing version. Libertaire is still widely used by anarchists here, so there’s no reason it could not be the case in USA, though it will be a pretty tough challenge.
You… should really educate yourself on what libertarianism actually is. Just because the root word “liberty” is in there does not mean it is a socialist concept.
It seems to me that @[email protected] actually has a better grasp on the historical context of “libertarianism” than you.
“Libertarian socialist” was what you called collectivist/communist anarchists in French.
Both have their roots in anarcho-capitalist movements and the idea that The State must be abolished.
The root anarchy and libertarian aspect of that is the idea that The State must be abolished. The difference is that (libertarian flavored) socialism is largely based on the idea of small communities to replace The State (and if that sounds contradictory…). Whereas (modern) libertarianism, is that the idea is that you replace The State with individual enclaves with the remnants existing solely to protect those rights. The “libertarian” aspect fundamentally boils down to the idea of individual liberty (hence the name) at the cost of The State and the distinctions between that and anarchy is, to put it bluntly, questionable.
It would be like insisting that those in favor of socialist democracies rebrand themselves as anarcho-communists because it sounds cooler and there IS a direct line between libertarian communists/anarcho-communists and modern socialist democratic thought. Which ignores that there is a reason that said thought evolved.
It was an intentional co-opt of a left wing term, as the right consistently does (steal our ideas/terms/strategies)
“One gratifying aspect of our rise to some prominence is that, for the first time in my memory, we, ‘our side,’ had captured a crucial word from the enemy. ‘Libertarians’ had long been simply a polite word for left-wing anarchists, that is for anti-private property anarchists, either of the communist or syndicalist variety. But now we had taken it over.”
-murray rothbard (“founder” of American libertarianism)
Realistically, from an anarchist perspective, the battle on the word is lost, we simply do not have the resources to combat that in the sphere of public consciousness.
Arguably, it’s a better use of our time demonstrating and connecting our ideas (namely, opposition to hierarchy) to the working class directly rather than fret over terminology but I digress
I actually think it is incredibly important to understand these distinctions. There is an entire generation of people who grew up with “I want weed and to not pay taxes. I guess that makes me a libertarian?” just like we have a generation of people who grew up with “I think it is stupid that I will be in debt forever because of college. I guess I am a communist?”
Understanding these distinctions is important.
Just because someone aligns with socialism doesn’t mean they are a libertarian socialist or a communist. Just like how someone can also be a libertarian but not be a socialist. The reason there are two words in that term is because it is a merging of multiple ideologies.
We see it all the time. Leftists become tankies because they listened to the equivalent of a facebook post at a drum circle and don’t want to actually understand their own ideologies. So rather than being a socialist democrat or a libertarian socialist or any other flavor, they become full on tankies because “Well. I like socialism and socialism is communism so the CCP never did anything wrong”. And that is used by right wing governments because… the vast majority of communist governments were evil and corrupt fascists (also many had stopped being communist along the way but…)
And same here. You and others are insisting that it was “co-opted”. But if you actually go back to the roots of the movements and even look at how the left uses it, it is one aspect. And yeah, right wing politics did push to use the term… because the idea of “tear it all down and make it better” aligns well with youths. But… just because they “won the branding” doesn’t mean that their pseudo-anarchists aren’t libertarians.
And I also very much argue it is worth making people look themselves in the mirror to actually understand what they are advocating for with “libertarianism” regardless of if it is “polite anarchy” or not.
I actually think it is incredibly important to understand these distinctions.
From a historical perspective, absolutely. My point is that it’s not worth attempting to “out message/propagandize” literal billionaires that own the platforms in which we would attempt to do so.
And same here. You and others are insisting that it was “co-opted”.
Rothbard quite literally claims this, this isn’t an opinion lmao.
But if you actually go back to the roots of the movements and even look at how the left uses it, it is one aspect.
Yes and? What is your point even supposed to be? That it’s not an umbrella term that comprehensively covers conceivable form of socialism? I don’t think anyone is arguing that.
We are simply pointing to the historical usage of the word, it’s origins.
But… just because they “won the branding” doesn’t mean that their pseudo-anarchists aren’t libertarians
In the modern, Americanized version of the word sure. But that doesn’t change the fact that historically, and originally, it meant something entirely different.
And I also very much argue it is worth making people look themselves in the mirror to actually understand what they are advocating for with “libertarianism” regardless of if it is “polite anarchy” or not.
Again, not sure who your arguing with here. The problem isn’t that it’s “polite” anarchism (whatever that even means), it’s that they stole and corrupted terms, ideas, etc, the very bastardization itself.
Both have their roots in anarcho-capitalist movements
Lolwut? Left wing anarchism is decades older than anarcho-capitalism (which basically started with the austrian school). Do you think Mikhail Bakunin was an Ancap, too?
You’re simply misrepresenting anarchism, homie.
I think you missed their point. Contemporary US style libertarianism has taken over the term, historically it meant something very different. They are arguing that people should start using the word again to mean things other than US style libertarianism. They are very obviously not confused about what libertarianism actually is given their knowledge of the history of the term; ironically it seems like you are unaware of this history and are doing something akin to what you accuse OP of doing.
I do agree though that people are generally very ignorant about this sort of stuff and often latch onto words to describe their politics without any genuine understanding of what those words actually mean.
I elaborated on that in the other branch and why, even historically, “libertarian” is MUCH closer to the modern libertarian than the modern socialist. But if the entire argument is “that sounds cooler and we should take it back”… that is a really stupid point.
Americans like to vote Republican. Let’s just call the Democrats “Republicans” and be done with it (bonus points for people who get the historical irony of that).
historically, “libertarian” is MUCH closer to the modern libertarian than the modern socialist
This is factually incorrect.
I agree with you but it’s just difficult when you have groups like Libertarians of NH posting this shit
Trust me I’m very well aware of the libertarian party and its various caucuses etc. They’re part of the problem.
I still think the root word of liberty has meaning to Americans that can make it easy to grasp anarchist socialism, even if they don’t fully buy in to the anarchist part. As long as Americans don’t associate it with communism or socialism they can often buy socialist anarchist ideas. It’s stupid, but it is what it is
Ugh. New Hampshire once again proves they are the worst of New England, by a huge margin!
As a lifelong NHer, I feel obligated to say fuck you buddy. Nobody calls NH shit but NHers.
As a person with a brain though you’re pretty much right lol
But idk I mean I think I’d rather live here than like Connecticut or Rhode Island.
Heh, fair enough!
As a lifelong Masshole, I already live in the best state in the country - but, believe me when I say that New Hampshire isn’t that bad when you factor in the many many shithole states that aren’t in New England.
Yeah it really depends what you’re talking about. Our politics are pretty whack. There’s a small amount of that good libertarian socialist energy here that bleeds over from Vermont and Maine, and I do feel like that is intensifying as Trump wields his heavy hammer of federal government, but I think a good chunk of that energy gets stolen and redistributed by bigots. We’ve never really had someone like Bernie to channel it.
But outside of politics we’ve got mountains, we’ve got lakes, we’ve got beaches, we’ve got some small cities, and Boston’s just a day trip away. I’ve always enjoyed that aspect. But yeah. New Hampshire. Live restrained and hike a little. See a loon. Then die.
I drive through NH every time I visit my sister in Maine. Call it the southern kid in me, but I enjoy a few tiny minutes of no seatbelt 🫣 but I’ve been in a horrible car accident where I was the only one with a seatbelt so don’t take that the wrong way 😅
Of course nh doesn’t have seatbelt laws lol
Or mandatory car insurance I think
I actually think the newer meanings is more accurate. Libertarian is now distinguished from anarchism by the presence of a limited government. That’s a necessary distinction. But what should that government do? Right libertarians say defend property rights, Left libertarians would say things like organize production.
The problem is liberals don’t even grasp the concept of a left libertarian. It’s an oxymoron to a liberal. They immediately assume you’re a right winger unfortunately in America at least. Then you have to just say you’re a socialist and then they think you want to put them in the gulags. Then you say well I’m the anarchist kind and then they think you’re going to kill them for liking money or something.
My primary complaint is liberals believe the right when the right try to say what libertarian means, and I think liberals should instead be educated on the word but they are often can’t be convinced , and it’s often too much energy to even try.
(I’m including the modern liberal and conservative in that definition of liberal).
Well I’m fundamentally against language protectionism, basically saying a word used to mean x and it should always mean x. Words should have utility more than history. But I think the struggle you’re having is real.
I’ve frequently said the left needs new words, if not primarily for the reason that all the old words have the baggage of failure from a century ago. But they should also engage in new ideas, hopefully not just new words.
Left libertarianism is not engaged with because it’s often just used as a synonym for left anarchism, whereas right libertarianism is not synonymous with right anarchism. If it doesn’t have a distinct philosophy, they feel you are tricking them, then they are right to just take all the problems with left anarchism and associate them. And IMO all anarchism is equally discredited. As someone who used to be left anarchist.
I’m not talking about protection, I’m talking about reclamation. Ie not all words must be protected, but some words have reason to be reclaimed. Very different things. The right shouldn’t have a monopoly on liberty in political discourse.
Well again, the proper use of the term should not be the implication that libertarian is implied right or left. It’s the axis on which we balance liberties. Both left libertarians and right libertarians want maximal liberty, but they disagree how those liberties are obtained. They both want a minimal government, but a minimal government best ensures liberty how? Both of their relations to anarchy are on the axis of the discussion of the word “maximal/minimal”. Minimum government manifests itself how? Maximal liberty manifests itself how?
The words greatest use is there. Not a political pin to be reclaimed by either side.
Left libertarians and right libertarians are both separate real things and they don’t agree on everything at all. It keeps them from gaining traction which our two uniparties appreciate because it keeps them in power. I’m anti-authoritarian so I dislike both parties for different reasons. Many libertarians describe themselves as classic liberals, saying “the party left me” but we’ve never had leadership that reflected either right or left libertarians whatsoever. Although I’m anti-authoritarian, I don’t consider myself libertarian. It’s too full of abuses like wanting child labor and approval of sex with minors that enables child sex trafficking. And complete removal of any regulation. The US has too much regulation, but there is good regulation.
There’s libertarian socialism. And anarcho-syndicalism. I’m small government on weed but big government on preventing pollution. Pollution violates the non aggression pact but what’s left of libertarians don’t see it that way.
It’s funny, because in Europe we classify liberals as right wing too.
Over here, Liberals are the people who want liberal economic policies, meaning less rules for the rich. Our left wing are socialdemocratic, with liberal social policies (meaning freedom to live how you want)
In America, they call their left wing liberals, because they are scared of socialism and just the thought of people getting to decide how to live their own lives are semi-radical.
For so many years the American left wing has only been focusing on social issues, while neglecting the more important stuff like healthcare, education, workers rights and affordable housing.
I get wanting to fight for acceptance for all, but its just distractions man. And as soon as gays became accepted, trans people became the new out group. The fascists will always create a perceived enemy that normal people have to defend.
You can fight for their rights without letting it take focus away from the oligarchs trying to fuck everyone.
Which is funny because to me it’s very clear liberal philosophy is leftist. Rawls being more modern liberal is basically distributionist. Classically Rousseau and even Smith were definitely not neoliberal.
I think the right hijacked liberal just like they did with libertarian, but in this case they did it wrong. The left needs liberalism or else they go the way of Stalin and Mao, they need core principles that they don’t sway from even for revolutionary ends such as justice, rule of law, freedom of speech, etc. The Marxist immoralism gave them far too much freedom to be opportunists in their principles basing them literally on material conditions rather than principles like rights and freedoms. As I often say, what revolution is worth anything without principles? If it was just scientific necessity, who would care to do the work?
Yup.
Although I would definitely argue that “Liberal” probably IS more accurate for what the American left is. Even going back to bush era republicans… we as a country tend to be right of center. With the American Left being fairly center-right/center-left and still prioritizing liberal politics to protect donors.
The left/right distinction is just one axis and makes all these discussions complicated (hence the confusion over where anarchy and libertarianism actually falls or the belief that socialism/communism is fundamentally left wing). But it is also important for people to realize that overton windows actually are very important to understand when discussing regional politics.
As an Anarcho-Syndicalist I am far more of a Libertarian than the average US “Libertarian”. However I mostly would rather use the word Anarchist due to wanting to absolish all coercion. At the same time “left-libertarian” works, hopefully one day actural Libertarians wont need to differentiate as leftist just as Anarchists dont need to.
How in the world would one abolish all coercion? That seems a basic fact of human nature. People will always try to influence others.
I was referring specifically to the absolution of the state and capital
“A lot of the illusions that I held dear, rugged individualism, individual freedoms, are coming back to bite us in the ass. It seems like getting rid of the gatekeepers gave us Trump as president, and in the same breath, in the same wind, gave us not wearing masks, and maybe gave us a huge unpleasant amount of overt racism.”
Hats off to a man willing to admit he made a mistake.
Now I would like to meet him.
Now do “progressives” that don’t understand the importance of voting.
I mean, good. Because F libertarians.
As a libertarian, I will also say fuck libertarians. Seriously, don’t vote for us. Our party is a fucking joke and many of us are wacky nutjobs.
