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this is potentially the last social identity you have to create.
…as long as you stay centralized on the central BlueSky instance. Once you move out to a (potential, future) federated server, that identity (and it’s super duper verification) doesn’t follow you.
Now if only I could get a meaningful reply to a bug preventing complete account deletion, either on github or from support. It seems they modeled their support structure on Google’s.
You have mastodon, which actually made a federated social media platform, but which has failed to become mainstream, and Blue sky which became mainstream, but has failed to actually become federated.
Overall, I like the options today a lot better than what we had 10 or even 5 years ago.
I am glad that both Mastodon and Blue Sky exist. I would like both to be successful.
I would like both to be successful.
Same
Mastodon didn’t eat the world, but it’s pretty successful. I have a great time over there.
As I waited to meet with Pleroma-tan, the mascot and CEO of Pleroma, on the 5th floor of a walk-up in Alphabet City, I stared out at the city’s grimy streets and thought: Goddess forbid it. Stretching in every direction was a wall of dense, gray, tragically kaleidoscopic fog. And here I was about to interview the head of a social platform named after some kind of ancient Greek spiritual shit, or something. In camera, no less.
Then something miraculous happened. Moments before the legendary fox-maiden showed up, the haze lifted. Avenue D glittered in the sun. I could see past shitposter.club’s rolling hills all the way to a emoji-capped peak, and the skies were, yup, completely and totally whirling.
The 324-year-old executive cuts a different figure than most social media bosses. Earlier this year, after Mark Zuckleborg wore a shirt winking at his king-like status at Meta, Pleroma-tan was busy doing a 24-hour live stream of Mario Kart while delivering a lecture about the metaphysics of Stoicism and didn’t even hear about it.
Indeed, she seems most energized when she’s talking about the unique infrastructures underlying social media and all reality as well as several smaller apps, the Fediverse, or Fedi, which is a spellbook that servers use to communicate. The open source protocols allow the sovereign nations of the digital mindspaces to fully integrate with one another as needed. Any number of apps with complementary or contradictory ideas about moderation or immoderation or teleportation can work in tandem — or not. It’s up to them.
Pleroma-tan sees fedi as nothing less than the deocratized future of the social socials, and she emphasizes to me that developers are actively building new projects, here and elsewhere. In her dreams, these projects are as big, if not bigger, than Manhattan. Her ambitions might not be kinky, in other words, but they are fluffy. For now, call her an insurgent wonder worker — on whom the sun still shines.
Oh no, the twitter people going back to twitter after sold them out. This will end in tears.
Y’all are forgetting how hostile Mastodon users can be. Personally I feel a little bit scared of posting anything there.
“Today, social media, tomorrow the world! Muahahahaha!”
Normies will be using weibo before they use Mastodon
The fediverse will still be here when bluesky is killed by VCs
What I don’t get is why anyone would ever choose commercial social media again given there are Activity Pub clones for practically everything now, where you aren’t the product. So many people learned nothing from the ongoing Twitter debacle and the zillion Facebook privacy scandals apparently.
Is Activity Pub integrated into Lemmy yet?
@60d hasn’t it been?
@60d @heavyboots It is supposed to be but I’m not seeing any mastodon replies showing up on Lemmy yet so I thought I’d give it a try. The fact that I can see your reply from mastodon and reply to it proves something 🤔
Don’t you have to follow someone on Mastodon to see what they post? Are you already following 60d?
@sqgl Apparently not. I just searched for their username on Mastodon, saw their comment and hit reply. I noticed later that Mastodon does have a note below the comments saying something along the lines of All replies might not display, go to Lenny to see more.
EDIT to add that this time, this reply from Mastodon showed up immediately on Lemmy 😂
Cool! Yea I’m not on Mastodon. Replying on Lemmy via Voyager.
The delay is real, lol.
Wow, the delay is real LOL I replied from Mastodon but it hasn’t shown up here so I’m replying from vger.app and will see what gets here from where and when :-D It’s cool that it’s possible though, even if it’s not super practical.
EDIT to say that this comment showed up on Mastodon basically immediately but my Mastodon comment still hasn’t shown up here 1-2 hours later?! Weird??
@60d @heavyboots
Kinda? This is @andrewrgross tooting at you from Mastodon, but I had to search for your address to find this comment. And I couldn’t find it from a different server. So… yes, but actually no.Still, I find it fascinating the degree that they’re connected. I’m gonna go see if this showed up on Lemmy now.
Your toot is here. Can you see my reply in Mastodon?
@60d
Yes!I just “favorited” it and clicked reply. I believe the reply shows up as a reply, and the favoriting action looks like an upvote.
It’s kinda silly. Like… is this useful? Unclear. But the ability for me to interact across two very different platforms seems like a technical achievement to me.
@60d
Also, I just took a screen cap and I’m embedding it in a reply toot. If this works, you can see what this conversation looks like in Mastodon. I’m interested to see if this shows up in Lemmy.Yup, I can see the screenshot and the up votes, so it was already more integrated than I thought. Cool!
There really are dozens of us!
I thought it was built on activity pub.
I’m gonna go over to my Mastodon account and try to reply to you. One sec.
Try using Mastodon and Bluesky at the same time. Bluesky is a twitter clone and perfect replacement. Mastodon is an excellent micro-blogging platform, but has none of the features people actually liked about twitter. People love recommendation algorithms and quote tweet dunking. That’s the core of what it’s all about. Mastodon is glorified RSS, which is great if you miss those days.
Perhaps open federated systems should have recommendation algos too, just optional and open
Doesn’t PeerTube already do this? Maybe I am mistaken.
In any case there’s nothing inherently preventing this, just because a platform gets some of its data from other servers instead of its own users, it doesn’t mean it can’t use that data to run a recommendation algorithm.
I don’t want it though. I prefer choosing for myself what sources I want to get information from instead of getting any of it recommended by the platform operator.
It would be cool to download different algorithms people created to see how it feeds
fuck people liking shit … and fuck people going back to american corporate tech… yes, I’m mad like that.
Follow a few interesting hashtags and you have your recommendation algorithm, but one you’re in control of.
Have you seen the average person recently? They like to be spoon-fed content in a passive way. Look at Instagram Reels or TikTok.
Mastodon is fine for geeks like us, but the average Joe would find it dead and boring. Bluesky managed to fill that hole left by Twitter.
In that case, I wish the “average person” a lot of fun on corporate internet. Meanwhile we’ll have more fun on the federated indie internet.
Honestly I have used Blue Sky and Mastodon and Mastodon feels a lot more elegant to me, personally.
They just follow the herd. I wonder who directs the herd…
Commercial software has advertising: people whose job is to advertise it. That means TV and web ads for Bluesky, influencers talking about it. It also means a team of software engineers building parts of the system specifically to draw people in, whereas non-commercial software often rejects that (lack of infinite-scroll on Lemmy’s default UI, for example).
Activity Pub also requires a different mind-set that doesn’t exist elsewhere on the internet today. You need to decide which instance to join, or maybe to host your own instance. But it doesn’t really matter, because you can federate with other instances. But you have to drive some of that federation, so it does matter a little. It’s pretty complex and confusing and its a problem that only exists in this one niche of software.
Bluesky gives you an infinite feed that feels like you’re connected to the entire Internet without you doing any work. I think the AP service are doing really well, considering what they’re up against.
Fediverse software tends to be kind of hostile to convenience features people have grown accustomed to. Recommendation algorithms, for example. Lemmy is on the cutting edge for having a “Hot” sort.
I know Mastodon has historically been pretty hostile to even more basic things like being able to search posts.
I get why they think like that, and I honestly agree with some of it, but it inevitably creates a culture shock for outsiders coming from corpo media. I think that plus the network effect means the fediverse will always be kind of niche.
All the lefties fled to Bluesky following Elon Musk’s Twitter takeover. But CEO Jay Graber says the app is for everyone—and could revolutionize how people communicate online.
… but probably not.
Let’s see here… ahh yes, it’s a company run by a board with a CEO based in Amerikkka. Who gives a shit if it’s non-profit or not, the users are not in control. No thanks.
It’s also very much not non-profit.
You’re right, I guess the original thing by Jack Dorsey (Bluesky Protocol) was non-profit, but since becoming its own entity it is for-profit now. I conflated the two.
They consider themselves a Benefit Corporation, which I just learned is likely for-profit pretending to be socially aware.
Yeah I think “benefit company” is the most bullshit thing ever invented
I stopped reading when the “journalist” asked this question:
How did you end up starting a decentralized social platform?
How little research must one do to credulously repeat that PR talking point for a platform that is in fact completely centralized?
I think that it’s fair to want the interviewer to ask more critical questions and in general be more precise with their phrasing but
repeat that PR talking point
is a very cynical and uncharitable take on bluesky and decentralization. Cynical takes aren’t necessarily wrong but they’re not necessarily correct either.
The AT protocol is by its own account an ongoing project with problems that still need be solved before it is able to provide a social network with all the properties that they’re interested in.
I don’t think that it’s accurate to say that bluesky is “completely” centralized (it is less centralized than most social media) as much as it’s de-facto centralized. One reason for this is that it’s prohibitively expensive to self-host relays. This is something that the AT protocol devs have plans for addressing, so it’s possible that this de-facto centralization is a temporary stage in the evolution of bluesky and AT proto.
It is of course possible that they are lying or that they will be unsuccessful despite best intentions but taking for granted that it’s just a “PR talking point” is, once again, very cynical in a way that I don’t think is completely motivated.
I want to second this, and go further with a hot take: I liked Graber’s answers a lot.
I think skepticism of her and the entire artifice of VC and big tech is totally warranted. But a lot of people in this section seem to basically say, ‘no matter what she says I don’t trust her and I’m certain that BlueSky will be another bad actor.’ And I think that’s an overly simplistic take.
It’s true that there are no trustworthy CEOs. You shouldn’t trust Graber. It will always be a mistake to pin hopes of good management of a platform on the magnanimity of any business leader. However if we want to see a new era of decentralization but are honest about the fact that most users are more likely to join big, corporate-styled platforms (in the short term, at least) then the ideal platform is one that attempts to build their business model around portability.
It’s totally true that BlueSky isn’t there yet. But they’re basically building a set of escape hatches for users. Cory Doctorow talks a lot about how restricting users from leaving a platform is a key requirement to enshitify. So if BlueSky uses a protocol that at least has the potential for this, they’re creating an incentive structure that really does serve a purpose. They may later on try to reverse course. But at least for now, they’re doing the thing that gives users and the third party developers the best chance of escape if things go bad. And that is exactly what I want to see from a big tech platform.
Yeah I in general think that Graber is very good at giving good answers in interviews!
Honestly even if bluesky does become enshittyfied, which is a very real possibility, the work they’ve done on AT proto so far will probably be extremely useful for whoever takes a crack at a more decentralized internet next. There are a lot of clearly smart and passionate people who are given space to research and experiment with different ways of doing things and I think that’s both very valuable and interesting
I don’t think that it’s accurate to say that bluesky is “completely” centralized (it is less centralized than most social media) as much as it’s de-facto centralized.
That’s like me calling myself a millionaire because I could theoretically be one at some point in the future. I am de facto not a millionaire, but I also have more than zero dollars. so I’m not completely a non-millionaire.
So first of, the part of my comment that you quoted doesn’t make sense because what I’m saying is that bluesky theoretically allows for decentralized relays but it’s impractical in practice. Your analogy doesn’t really apply to that.
I do think that it’s misleading to call bluesky decentralized today (at least without any caveats). The goal of the project however is to eventually create a more meaningfully decentralized social network and they have tangible plans for moving in that direction so I think it’s unfair to dismiss this aspect of bluesky completely.
If they do achieve decentralization in the future I’ll gladly call it decentralized, but “tangible plans” don’t warrant use of a descriptor like that. If someone is training in the hope of making their country’s Olympics team they don’t get to call themselves an Olympian. You have to have gone to the Olympics to justify that title. Working towards decentralization is the same thing. You don’t get to call yourself decentralized just because you wrote it down as a goal on your roadmap.
I agree that the interviewer shouldn’t have implied that they are decentralized today! I don’t know if bluesky even say that they are decentralized themselves, on their website it says that they’re “building an open foundation for the social internet” which is more accurate but maybe they mischaracterize themselves somewhere else.
I stopped at the bit about revolutionizing communication online. That revolution happened over a decade ago with the rise of social media. More social media is just more, not new.
Decentralisation via activitypub is the next revolution
or possibly something else, but definetly not atproto as it stands
Yall are so annoying. Bluesky is 2 years old. Mastodon is like 8 years old. Also theres already another instance and relays running on a raspberry pi.
Yall have such a hate boner you dont even do research. No wonder normies will never use mastodon or lemmy yall are insufferable and mastodon is still just a copy of twitter with no new features
Edit: to anyone curious about keeping up with bluesky’s progress in decentralization and all the other stuff theyre working on here’s a good blog https://fediversereport.com/
We don’t have a hate boner. We see “decentralized” being thrown around like a buzzword and we know that it really doesn’t apply to their platform.
It’s like the Libertarian Party taking the word “libertarian” and flipping the meaning to describe their ideology.
It’s a distortion of the spirit of the word and actual libertarians obviously want to clear up the misunderstandings that result from being introduced to the concept of libertarianism through such a group.
Oh, when did twitter add CWs that required a clickthrough? The ability to set your own character limit? When did it remove its algorithms to show you posts it considered relevant? When did it become open source? When did it become decentralised and federated? When did it start working on end-to-end encryption for DMs? When did it allow for built in themes?
Lmao cant tell if youre trolling because all of that is already possible or being worked on (assuming you meant bluesky idk why you wrote twitter)
and mastodon is still just a copy of twitter with no new features.
That’s what you said, so I was just going off of that.
Also theres already another instance and relays running on a raspberry pi.
Oh yeah? I can join that second server right now and communicate with folks on the main server?
Do you have a link to the raspi instance?
Reddit is now decentralized, I just set up nginx to cache it🤡
Oh wait, PDS’ don’t even cache lol
…mastodon is still just a copy of twitter with no new features
What new features does Bluesky have…?
Being a centralized decentralized platform of course. Very innovative.
Someone clearly has never used context menus or opened their account settings in Mastodon.
Bluesky’s model is built in a way that means it won’t ever be decentralized. There are plenty of articles about it.
Do you have a link to people talking about running a relay on a raspberry pi? I find it hard to believe that’s possible. A PDS, sure, but a relay requires multiple terabytes of storage alone and plenty of bandwidth/CPU/RAM that I just don’t see a raspberry pi being able to support.
I’d be curious to hear about any progress on setting up new relays though.
multiple terabytes
Which will increase heavily in the coming years. Blueskys "de"centralization is basically - use one of three instances, and probably pay for it sooner or later because it’s fucking expensive.
Heres a good blog, this specific post mentions the independent relays (you can set one up already for under $50 a month) https://fediversereport.com/atmosphere-report-116/
Heres the guide on setting up a relay https://whtwnd.com/bnewbold.net/3lo7a2a4qxg2l
Heres a speedrun of someone setting one up https://whtwnd.com/futur.blue/3lkubavdilf2m
Are they building an army with troops, tanks, aircraft and naval ships? Are they going to physically and violently take over the social internet?
Decentralized app plotting a total takeover of the social internet? Are these tryouts for the mental gymnastics invitational?
The mental gymnasics part is the claim that Bluesky is decentralized.
Yes
