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So… It’s better to live in the matrix, gotcha.
For some people it is. Hell, there’s even a character in the actual movie who thinks so.
Yeah, and he doesn’t mind killing other people for that
Which shows he would have been better off living in the Matrix considering how badly he reacted to leaving it.
I’m an atheist but I understand that religion and/or faith makes a lot of people happy and I don’t want to take that happiness away from them.
I do. It’s such a waste of time. I’m not going to start anything with people, I don’t have the patience or energy for that. And honestly, i don’t have any debate skills. But I really wish I could just take it all away. Isn’t it better to be right than to be happy?
Isn’t it better to be right than to be happy?
First of all, no it isn’t. If you think it is, please explain why.
Also, Is that a decision that you would want someone else to make for you?
If not, why do you want to make that decision for other people?
Agnostic here and yeah, most atheists and agnostics I have ever met are about the same. We don’t care if YOU believe. We care that you care we don’t. Most of us will never utter a word against your religion and beliefs as long as you “do unto others” and all that jazz. This comic reaks of being drawn by a Christian about how they think Athiests behave and feel. This video is ancient now, but I get the same vibes off this comic.
I take this comic to be more poking fun at the portion of atheists who make their entire personality around disproving God’s existence - people who try to spread atheism the same way christians spread their own gospel. It’s largely not applicable to other atheists.
Yeah, those aren’t athiests, they are assholes. Anyone who prosthelytizes is an asshole. Period.
With how sad and empty my geriatric mother’s life is, the last thing I’m going to do is take away her imaginary friend.
One panel away from being Loss.
I didn’t realize neckbeard atheists oppressed so many people compared to religion, thanks to the author for opening my eyes
Genocide is worse than murder but murder is still bad
Them religious zealots with their evolutionary biology and eugenics!
Where did murder come into this?
Around the time religion started.
It didn’t. I’m using an analogy to show that criticising atheists like this does not mean I support religion. Quite the contrary, in fact.
Gotcha
Is one of these murderous religious people in the room with us right now?
Way to completely miss the point of the comic. Tearing down someone out of a vain desire to be “right” helps no one. Fight people who use any belief to justify being shitty to others. Go read some Vonnegut and learn to leave people who get goodness out of shit alone.
Edit: The comment originally was about religious people being murderous. My first edit was to add an additional thought. This dude’s edited now to change the core of his argument from “murder” to “opression”.
If you are an adult and that is your reaction to understanding that god isnt real then you need serious psychological help.
This might be a popular opinion here on Lemmy but this is definitely NOT really rooted in reality.
Conceptually going from belief in a something you earnestly want to believe in to being proven it’s wrong will shatter who you are.
This is not much different than learning your partner is cheating on you or that your parents aren’t actually you parents and they hid it from you, or something like that.
Yes believing in religion may be absurd but c’mon this take is pretty off
Or finding out Santa isn’t real!
To be fair, a lot of people need serious psychological help and get God instead.
Religion is often used as cognitive dissonance to avoid dealing with trauma.
Yeah, I agree with your statement. Not in a degrading way though. I know people whose lives have been so difficult, agonizing and full of abuse. Religion is what got them through those times and gave them hope. I am an atheist too, a very radical one at that, but I can imagine these people would have similar reactions if their only source of spiritual comfort was aggressively denied.
So they do need serious psychological help, but not because they are stupid to react that way, if that was what you meant.
That was very insightful. Thank you, gay_sex.
“If you have a deeply emotional reaction to your entire worldview being shattered in your middle age and having everything that once brought you a sense of comfort, however manufactured, suddenly ripped away from you, then you need psychological help.”
At least your brain-dead snark somehow still brought you to the correct conclusion, unintentional as it may have been.
Ofcourse if you think that peoples practical view of the world is strongly dependent on religion, then that would be your reaction to my comment. I just dont believe that this is true. At least in my experience with people old and young, no matter the ethnicity or religious background, barely anyone is so deeply religious anymore that their understanding of reality depends on belief in god.
This comic just doesnt make any sense in large parts of the world where people live either completely secular or only vaguely influenced by religion.
Hey look, it’s the guy in the comic.
Seriously, if you are an adult and lack the empathy to see that it can be a traumatic experience to completely dismantle one’s sense of identity and community, then you need serious psychological help.
Sharing your beliefs with family is pretty common. Would you not want your relatives to reflect the way you see the world?
Just because it’s going against the generational direction doesn’t make it somehow wrong.
Nor is making a relative upset necessarily wrong.
Now, freed from the expectations, worldview, and belief systems of a religion, she is able to choose her own way of living?
I don’t really see how this is a negative. Religion gives easy, comforting, often bullshit answers to difficult questions. Who are you supposed to be? What’s the right thing to do? How should you treat others? What happens after I die?
Now, freed from the expectations, worldview, and belief systems of a religion, she is able to choose her own way of living?
In the same way that throwing a child into the ocean is “free to learn how to swim”, sure. You can’t go to all this work to convince someone you are right, and then as soon as they start listening and agreeing with you, abandon them to despair. If you want to help someone see the world more clearly, you also have to show them how to handle this new world, especially if it’s your own family you’re trying to help.
I do agree that abandonment is cringe.
On their own journey, I’d be wary of introducing my own biases.
I feel that easily could’ve been excluded from the comic either for the author’s narrative, or simply to keep it a 3 panel. Could also just be alone time to process.
Totally random question chud: how do you feel about support for drug addicts?
Actually yes religious justifications for violence are fairly common, the comic is stupid
Is one of these murderous religious people in the room with us right now?
No they’re just ruling some of the most powerful and genocidal despotic countries in human history.
Fight people who use any belief to justify being shitty to others.
Yes, fight religion. Fight it with logic, science and facts. Otherwise you’ll get people like RFK jr, and a whole bunch of sick and potentially dead children. Or you might end up like the middle east, dead in the name of god.
?
The last panel is ambiguous about whether the woman is having an emotional breakdown and lying on the ground in tears, or if she was killed by her son and was crying as she died. Both would work as someone being “convinced” their religion is wrong, as being dead would “convince” you about god.
I think it’s the former, but i see the latter.
The last panel isn’t ambiguous. She’s emotionally shattered because her fantasy was destroyed.
Honestly I initially interpreted the comic as a joke about the dichotomy of how the son would feel good about it but it’s a lot of emotional processing for the mother.
There’s a difference between religion and faith. Faith is belief in a higher power. Religion is an institution that exploits faith to opress people. This neckbeard atheist didn’t thwart religion, he just destroyed his mom’s faith. I have my doubts that his mom was doing a lot of oppressing.
neither of those definitions are correct…
They are sufficient for the topic at hand.
No, incorrect definitions are never sufficient. That is just making up stuff
It is not. Those are, roughly, what those words mean. I could use more precise ones, but this isn’t a serious philosophical discussion with serious people so the effort would be wasted.
Substitute whichever words you prefer, there’s a difference between an individual’s personal belief in a higher power, and the institution which exploits that belief to oppress. Half-baked semantic objections do not make you clever. Engage with the content of the argument.
Sorry you were downvoted for pointing out hypocrisy.
I get it. Never grew much hair on my neck but I went through an edgy Internet atheist phase. I saw myself as a champion of science and rationality, leading poor deluded people to the light.
I got better, but it took time.
The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.
Werner Heisenberg
That’s a beautiful quote thank you
That looks like a healthy cry. She will go through much self reflection and come about as a better person.
Nope! She has spent her life with a religious as her backbone and now will seek it as a crutch with greater desparation. Trauma…survival mode…etc…
Basically… my reaction to hearing the good word of Atheism was to cling to New Age as hard as possible and believe the Skeptics were just miserable and calling anything inconvenient to their beliefs “Psuedoscience”
That lasted… a while… thankfully I’m not on the Spirit Science train anymlre
Now I’m a Buddhist and am learning to be cool with the temporary nature of existence and am looking forward to rebirth in the Pure Land.
The Problem with New Atheism is that humans need hope and hope isn’t something Dawkins offers.
That sounds like a wonderful journey of reflection.
My personal view is that hope as a foundation is complete bullshit. My foundation is, in the most positive version of nihilism, “ultimately, nothing matters.” I look at it as a clean slate. You get to decide what is important to you and persue it! I study all of nature to find purpose or meaning. I take joy in human ingenuity. I take sorrow in callousness. I appreciate what I have and want better for everyone.
Hope is a fine outlook but not something to lean on. It can kill motivation when expecting some ‘other’ to fix things. That can reward the callous and hamper ingenuity. It does not drive people to be better but can drive them to follow depraved systems of belief when they are promised post mortem reward or punishment.
I find when I explain my Buddhist leanings that Atheists get confused and think I am an atheist who just likes lighting “prayer candles” for the lulz and that my talk of being reborn into the Pureland is some wacky metaphor.
If there wasn’t more to this than I should never have been born in the first place.
An awful lot of the neckbeards from the comic in these comments.
You mean from the comic depicting neckbeards? So weird
I’m sure you’d feel more secure with the 9gag comment section, they love this type of stereotype (as well as others)
And on lemmy in general
Lemmy is a wretched hive of
scumneckbeards and villainy…
Me at 13 discovering I wont see my loved ones ever again and there’s nobody’s hand on my shoulder holding me up:
Me when I try and pet a cat but they run away.
Religion may be a lie but it’s a comforting lie and that helps a lot of people get through their daily life.
Thing is it shouldn’t be comforting to anyone if they really take the details seriously. You could do as much damage really educating someone about Deuteronomy and other fun parts of the Bible and ultimately leave them in a worse state than finding a way to make them an atheist.
We forget an atheist is just a non-theist. Someone who doesn’t believe in any specific canonical god. I’m an atheist with a genuine faith the universe has more in store for “me” (whatever that is; I don’t believe it’s necessarily or eternally “ynthrepic”) than a mere human lifetime given what we know about the universe as a whole and how mysterious and seemingly fundamental consciousness is to it all. That gives me some relief and comfort from the existential dread. More than I could possibly get from Yahweh and his totally uncompelling biblical heaven and hell dynamic.
Most people I know who are religious don’t take the bible very literally; most haven’t even read it. The comforting lie is stuff about the after-life, heaven, and a caring universe.
And that’s great so long as it’s a source of comfort and not dread. The fear of God and hellfire is real. We need people who carry faiths to recognize that this is by definition an uncertainty for which no real evidence exists, when it comes to consequences in the real world. Maybe that’s a contradiction to some, but it doesn’t need to be.
You’re forgetting that some people have coping mechanisms for life around systems containing a kind god that’s there looking after them, and will reunite them with people they desperately hope to see again when they die.
Your coping mechanism is hoping the universe is magical and mysterious and has something more for you when you die. You’re not an atheist, just a non-denominational theist with a different hope for continuing on after you’re dead. I hope it brings you comfort, but don’t shit on people who have a different post death comfort they hope for.
Nonsense. I don’t believe in any divine entity, which is the definition of theism. Moreover, my “faith” isn’t predicated on any actions in the world. It’s a musing about the universe. A hopeful fantasy that I think is worth wanting. But it’s not a gospel for how you ought to live in the world. That’s why organised religions are a toxic force in the world overall, and we should never shy away from criticising them.
Yeah, I warn those who are challenging their own faith that naturalism isn’t for everyone. For me it was a stark process to come to terms that I’m thinking meat, and my species is looking at some imminent great filters even before we are able to create a dependent colony on our own moon, so mostly harmless is going to be more of a footnote than our society deserves.
As someone who had an early aspiration to add something significant to the collective community that it could take with it into the future, this proved to be a bit of a let-down.
What aspects of naturalism do you feel negate the reality of our collective community? I really don’t see how the one led you to the other.
I don’t think naturalism negates our collective community, but it does mean it is up to us to navigate an instinct for small tribes. Once we took up advanced agriculture and stopped migrating, we built large societies. And since then we have been contending with subversives who favor their own smaller sects over the good of the community, and they are very good at subverting larger systems for their personal gain.
Most theistic paradigms insist that there are higher powers to assist us when we confront existential threats (such as the climate crisis). Naturalism is one of the paradigms (not the only one) that confronts that there are no safety nets or training wheels. The human species can die out without the assurance of self-sustaining off-world colonies, and there are no higher powers to care or even notice. (Again, not to say they don’t exist, but we’ve looked hard and been unable to detect them.)
Human society may, possibly in the face of the Trump regime, finally take class consciousness and community-focused governance seriously on a large scale. (There have been smaller scale examples.)
However, this isn’t the first time we’ve thought about it and been subverted by established political power. Rather historically, often just after a bout of tyranny, societal collapse and its consequential horrors, we decide as firmly as we can that this time we’re going to do it right! and then it gets diluted and subverted within even thirty years.
So to address the matter of uniting our collective community in a global cooperative effort: It’s going to take a sociological miracle. We need to discover some new method, invent some new technology that enables all of us, even Trump, Musk, Vought and Thiel to recognize that every one of our fellow 343 million Americans (or 8 billion plus fellow humans) is, as Jesus put it, our neighbor who we should regard equally, that the worst renegade and the most wretched transient deserve the same benefits and treatment as themselves. And then this new thing needs to be resistant to efforts to subvert it.
(Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal imagined such a gimmick, though I can’t locate the specific comic. In it a point system is invented, and it’s noted that people are nice for the points rather than for a sincere interest in community, but the system works, so it doesn’t matter much.)
And we need to do it soon. We’re running out of water, and the global average temperature is now at levels where experts warned us could prove a challenge to responders even at the national scale as hurricanes and wildfires rampage across the planet. The unlucky ones will survive until the global famine.
Naturalistic philosophy doesn’t say we can’t navigate our way to a community-driven society that acknowledges the least of us deserve a comfy life and we should mind the environment, rather, it only acknowledges that if we don’t we risk human extinction, and if we die out, there’s nothing watching out for us. The greatest cosmic horrir: throughout the universe not even a fraction of a fuck will be given as all of our culture, all of our ideas and works will be reduced to another geological layer on a speck orbiting a spark.
And a lot of people are not prepared to confront this.
Don’t get two hung up on great filters. We could’ve easy passed a few of them in the last hundred million years. You’re much more than thinking meat, you have feelings and a perspective over time. its amazing not a liability.
Even if boom over, it was loads of fun.
Honestly, this is why I don’t discuss Mormon history and the massive, gaping chasms in their claims of Truth with my parents. My parents are old–old enough that the family is talking about who is going to call the coroner, who’s going to deal with tying up finances, etc.–and knowing that they’ve wasted an entire lifetime and hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing on a con isn’t going to do anything useful at this point. Fifty years ago? Sure, they would have had plenty of time to come to terms with it. Now? Meh.
knowing that they’ve wasted an entire lifetime and hundreds of thousands of dollars in tithing on a con isn’t going to do anything useful at this point.
It always gets me how people can be so comfortable with tithing while so prickly about paying taxes. I’ve straight up heard “every dollar I give to the government is one I can’t give to the church” as an argument, when the town and state I’m living in is joined at the hip with the church they love.
Fifty years ago? Sure, they would have had plenty of time to come to terms with it.
Church is one of those third-spaces that the unemployed and retired flock to when they’ve got too much time and not a ton of money. A great deal of the appeal of these places, especially back in my parents’ day, was as a social center with a feel-good energy. As a born-and-raised Houstonian I’ve seen it work on enormous numbers of otherwise-religiously-apathetic people. The whole Joel Osteen model is Good Vibes as a religious experience. One big Jesus Themed Pep Rally.
I think you can probably logic your way to a “God’s Not Real” conclusion with a generic religiously-ambivalent lay person. But I don’t think a simple logic chain is enough to convince folks who consider religion a form of community recreation to stop showing up. No more than you could talk someone out of blaring their favorite brand of Country Music or driving an oversized pickup truck or playing with their toy guns down at the gun range.
These just aren’t logical decisions. They are social decisions.
I got a Father in Law that tithes his retirement income from the military to his church and votes hard republican. But he abstained from Trump voting so he considers himself enlightened.
They are social decisions.
Exactly.
I don’t know that my parents were ever the kind of person that bitched about paying taxes. They might have privately, but i don’t remember it ever being a big deal. Me, I understand that my taxes are too low for what I expect the gov’t to be doing.
And you’re exactly right about the social experience. One of the enormous struggles for atheists has been building a community. Churches fill that need, even though they cause real harms in other ways. If you go to a church, it’s easy to meet people and make friends when you move to a new community. If you don’t, well, good luck because you’re going to need it.
When I worked in a nursing home, I was Christian.
I mean, I wasn’t. At all. But the dying little old ladies who sundowned so bad that they sometimes thought I was their grandchild? When they asked if I believed in Jesus, I’d bite my tongue and tell them yes. I hated having to lie to their faces, I hate even thinking about it all these years later, but some of them had nothing to look forward to except “going to heaven” by that point. Lying seemed the most ethical choice.
I mean to make it easier I guess I would just tell myself I am convinced that Jesus existed. So I believe in him. But not “in Him” capital H.
Or you could imagine yourself cheering Jesus on and hoping he will do well in sports ball for the Jerusalem league. I could see him as a solid basketball player with the magical powers and all.
Nothing wrong with lying there obviously.
I would think you’d need to tell lots of lies to someone in that state to not make things difficult over and over for them. Jesus would just be another one on that pile.
You got it. Sometimes the safest thing to do when somebody’s having hallucinations is to play along, and that means telling lots of lies. Sometimes people think their kids (who are well into their 60s) are still newborns, and they will have a panic attack because they don’t know where their “baby” is. I’ve reassured people that I “just set the baby down to nap” numerous times.
I’ve seen people treat dolls like real babies, too, and one time a lady rolled up to me in her wheelchair, asking to see a doctor because her baby (a doll with food smeared over its mouth) wasn’t eating. I even went so far as to get those “magic” doll bottle things that appear to “empty” when you tip them.
Point is, you’re right. But I don’t feel as conflicted about all the other lies I told, I guess the religion thing is just too … I dunno, “icky” for me? I’m an out atheist with pretty much everyone else. I don’t like having to go back into a closet.
One set of lies is about their past or present. The Jesus one is about their future. It’s a lot easier to lie to someone about the former two than to tell them there’s no future, they’ll never be whole or happy again. We all need a reason to look forward, a reason to keep the chin up and carry on. Most anyone can empathetically understand how crushing it would be if they were told that they were going to die soon, so telling an Alzheimer’s victim that there’s nothing to look forward to rings a similar bell in our heads.
Is the mother supposed to be sad about religion being a sham or sad that her child doesn’t believe? The comic is too ambiguous to me because the 1st and 2nd panel heavily imply a caricature of atheism often spread by religious people who feel powerless in their own lives.
she ded
Sad that the existential dread of not existing after death makes life pointless.
Having your entire worldview shattered can be pretty emotional
i think it’s more her grieving the fact that a big chunk of her life was a lie
Even other atheists or agnostics use that caricature of reddit atheists. It’s less so atheists and more like atheists who make atheism their whole personality
So many people in this thread completely missing the satire. The author is clearly also an atheist poking fun at the highschool reddit atheist stereotype. Taking this way too seriously.
I didn’t catch the self-deprecation. What makes it clear?
To me, what this comic is saying is that even if you’re able to debate someone out of believing in God it’s cruel to do it to someone like your mom who has God as the central pillar of their emotional well-being.
It presupposes that you’re able to “prove” that God doesn’t exist and to me it doesn’t necessarily paint the idea of being an atheist in a negative light, just the neckbeard atheist attitude that you should try to emotionally destroy people who do believe in God.
It’s a three panel comic so yeah, it’s a bit ambiguous, I just think that people are missing that the punchline is really only funny from an atheist perspective. From a Christian perspective the comic is awkward. The last panel wouldn’t be a punchline and wouldn’t make sense at all, how would these obviously loser neckbeards be able to prove God doesn’t exist?
Hmm, that is a pretty insightful point. On the other hand, I think most people I know who are religious are the sort who can appreciate self-deprecating humour themselves – they might think it’s funny for taking an absurd premise to its logical conclusion.
What suggests to me that this author is trying to paint atheism in a negative light is quite straightforwardly “score one for atheism.” It doesn’t really have a hint of irony to me. I think the author clearly thinks atheism just isn’t cool anymore.
Nobody said reality was all smiles and rainbows. However, it’s entirely possible to find happiness without believing in fairy tales so you can sleep at night.
And her son completely failed to demonstrate any of that. She presumably spent her life trying to take care of her kid, (the quality of which can only be guessed at, but she cared enough to listwn to his points about atheism) and as soon as her child shows her a new way of thinking he completely abandons her without giving her any ways of handling it.
Whew. Must have been hard work carrying all those assumptions in.
Name three.
There are two big ones, both of which imply other assumptions like she didn’t argue or tell him he was going to hell or a ton of other negative stuff that religious people tend to toss out when someone anknowledges atheism in their presence.
She presumably spent her life trying to take care of her kid
she cared enough to listwn to his points about atheism
People are far more receptive to listening to someone they trust over someone they don’t. It therefore follows that the mom was far more likely to have trusted/respected her son enough to hear what he had to say than the opposite. It’s all the same assumption.
But sure, let’s go with the alternative; she’s a complete asshole who used religion as her crutch to do horrible things to her son all her life, and her son finally talked her into realising that she is the monster who has been causing issues this whole time. This is its own assumption too; we don’t know what their relationship was like.
Her son, after showing her how horrible she has been her whole life, runs off to celebrate this victory with his friends, and leaves her to cry on the floor, alone.
He cared more about being right than anything else, including helping her through this discovery or damn, even just calling someone she trusts to talk her through it.
So the point of the comic stands regardless of this assumption. The son abandoned his mother after turning her worldview over completely. The consequence of that was his mother lying on the floor, devastated. (Whether she deserved it or not)
Does anyone really deserve that? Did you enjoy having to figure out what to do with yourself when you realised that it’s entirely likely that nothing outside of this single life exists, all on your own? Would you have appreciated a friend or family member walking you through the way to handle that?
A little bit of empathy goes a long way.
Or they just talked it over calmy and respectfully and she didn’t break down crying until well after he left and the reality of all of the time she wasted not being herself because of being told her natural attraction to women was a sin hit home. The son is happy when telling his friends because his mom can be herself!
Or he could be an evil, heartless athiest like you apparently want him to be.
I mean, I guess that’s one interpretation. If you go with those assumptions, the takeaway is that, what, changing changing your views can be devastating? Where’s the value in that? ‘Big worldview changes can be stressful’ is not at all a valuable takeaway from this.
My point really has nothing to do with his atheism. Obviously he cares too; he wouldn’t bother talking with her if he didn’t care. My point is that there are better ways to care, and it’s worth keeping them in mind whenever this sort of situation comes up.
I’d be happy knowing our family wasn’t financially enabling organizations that hide and protect rapists and pedophiles.
YMMV.
I mean, the celebration was not unwarranted. It’s just that he left quickly enough that all the emotional breakdown happened to her while she was all alone, instead of with him there to support her.
It’s possible but unfortunately when people have spent their entire lives with religion being their (seemingly) only source of happiness, it can be really hard for them to find a different source.
And also I don’t see how life looks better while believing in a greater power. Starting with people going to war and desolation all the time in the name of their god…
Im an atheist and I listen to The Lord of the Rings audiobook so I can sleep at night. Reality is fucking awful and I like my fairy tales.
Yes! Exactly this! So many atheists love fantasy and sci-fi. Why not? It is wonderful to have some magic in the world. We just know the stuff is made-up.
If those who share such things with us, demand crazy shit from us, we call that out for being toxic fandom or corporate enshittification and go away, if we please. In religions, that is just another day.
The drawing of him kicking in the door is hilarious.
