I’ve got no problem with them, but these are obviously kids who grew up in a different age than me, and it shows, I know what could seem a joke to me could come off different to them. Especially this being In the trades and the type of jokes we make here. I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, we’re all trying to just get through the day after all
Edit: I have learned, they used to be female, transitioned to male. (So trans-masc? I’m probably messing that up) Lesbian, and non-binary, thankfully they brought it up which was very helpful as I wasn’t sure if it was appropriate to ask
“I’m not sure I understand, but am willing to have an open mind and listen and understand where you’re coming from. If you’ll have patience to explain to me, I’d be willing to learn with humility and humanity and do my best to be a better person”
Admit ignorance, commit to being a good person. It’s not that hard.
There. Was that at hard?
It’s apparently easier than you not being a jackass, at least.
Edited. My intent is not to be a jackass, but to point out that SO many people use any excuse to not just bridge the gap and try to understand other people.
To be perfectly clear, though, I’ve been explaining this to people for years, and I’m absolutely sick and tired of the same old excuses and pushback. So I apologize if some of that unfairly came out here to people who are new to this and may be undeserving of that specific criticism.
What’s with the unwarranted condescension?
It’s not condescension. That’s quite literally the point. So many people just refuse to be or have never learned to be humble. This is literally a great cooperative and constructive stance to take. You don’t have to be tough, you aren’t showing off to anybody - you’re asking somebody for help understanding them. If that’s really a problem, then you need to reassess how you navigate the world with others and why. If you genuinely do this for some trans kid, they’ll love you and be more than willing to help you understand because basically nobody ever cares about them or their experiences. You’d make their year (shit. If you do this for anybody and you’ll make them happy). But don’t do it just to do it, actually embody this humility. It’ll be weird at first, but you might even make a friend.
If your first reaction is to be offended by advice, maybe you shouldn’t be in leadership.
Would you be genuinely interested in my feedback about why literally everyone agrees with me that you have a combative tone, or would you just condescendingly dismiss that as well?
Hit me.
No you’re making it sound like they’re going to be a problem right from the start and you’re willing to understand
Is “they” op or the trans kid?
Trans
I do not agree with an angry mob downvoting you, but I’ll notice this is probably not the context to put this in.
This looks more like a parent figuring out about their kids being trans. In the OP’s context, everyone is on an even ground.
Here, it is mostly important to use their preferred names/pronouns and consult on the terms as necessary.
No one talks like this
Do you mean no one talks like this in your industry or company? You could always be a vanguard and set the tone. Also you don’t have to say exactly that, word for word. My point is to just level with them, admit you don’t really know, and then to listen and try to understand their story a bit. Even the notion in dude-speak or whatever will be heard loud and clear and you’ll make their day, and everybody will be happier for it.
Yeah… since you are asking, try not to do anything. They’re people. They like jokes too.
Of course, all advise given in this thread is valuable, but I mean being overcautious may be the “special treatment” that is there routinely reminding them “oh you’re different”. They don’t need that. Just respect.
Well, one thing I know is: make sure you don’t out them. If a kid has transphobic parents, you really don’t want to accidentally inform them their kid is trans.
I mean I just stay out of peoples personal lives as a principal
Great start. It also goes for work. Even if they’re open about it, just don’t allow comment on it at all at work. People quite often say “so there’s a lad working on X team and he’s trans but you’d never know” or needlessly say “oh yeah Katie, she’s trans”. Shut that down RUTHLESSLY around you unless the trans person says not to
I like this idea and will do my best to put it to work. Shut that shit down. Thank you.
Np thanks for looking out for trans people!
I dont understand people’s need to share shit like that.
It’s up there with (though obviously not as private and sensitive as) when people tell you a story about someone they interacted with and just have to make sure you know the skin colour of the person when it holds zero relevance to the story.
I know it’s ingrained into what people say. Maybe it’s the unusual things people feel they need to comment on? Idk though
Treat them like anyone else by default and make accommodations if you need to and it’s reasonable.
You’re asking with good intentions, but the best answer for any group will always be that. Shit, not even by groups. On a human by human basis just do that, there’s a crazy amount of human variation and it’s not always obvious.
First of all, good for you for asking the question. I think many people are afraid to ask these things even if they want to be respectful and inclusive for fear of coming off as backward or ignorant, but I think asking questions in good faith shows that we’re willing to listen and learn.
But most importantly, just treat them with the same respect you’d treat anyone else! Gender identity isn’t really that big of a deal, and after you get to know some trans folks you’ll come to that realization quickly that they’re just regular people!
Treat them like any other person. Their gender/identity should have absolutely zero impact on the ability to do their job. So you don’t even need to ask this question. If you feel like you’re walking on eggshells and scared of bringing up an offensive topic, then that’s an issue with you, not with them. There’s nothing that you say that should be offending them since it’s absolutely irrelevant to work.
Regardless of who your coworkers are, topics like gender identity or politics should NEVER be discussed in the workplace. If you simply avoid engaging in those types of topics then you will be safe. Talking about those things at work is an absolute horrendous idea, regardless of who the coworkers are. Those convos don’t belong in the workplace.
I think some politics is healthy to talk about in certain work situations. Definitely not the red vs blue tribal nonsense, but discussing and understanding material conditions
The only politics that should be discussed at work are policies that directly impact the business. For example, my company has many conversations and meetings around impacts from Trump’s tariffs. No one gives an opinion on what their politics are. Not a single one. We discuss the impact on the business and how we can mitigate them. It ends there.
I think many workplaces function better when workers are able to develop camaraderie by talking and joking about things that aren’t strictly related to work
There are plenty of other things to joke around and talk about, aside from politics.
When I say politics I include things like struggles with inflation and laws that harm you and global warming and working conditions and much more. I think that it’s good to engage thoughtfully with the people we surround ourselves with
When someone starts complaining about what bathroom everyone is using, you can’t just ignore it and hope it goes away. It’s your job as their superior to address these issues.
Similarly,
Their gender/identity should have absolutely zero impact on the ability to do their job.
Making this stance clear requires talking about gender identity and politics.
I think you’re talking about a completely different situation. All I’m saying is that you shouldn’t talk politics at work. You’re talking about someone creating a disturbance and making people uncomfortable. Obviously the company would want to take care of that. That’s a completely different situation.
I don’t understand your second point about having a conversation about gender identity. What do you mean? I don’t see how that applies to my reply.
This is not a comprehensive list, but you should probably avoid talking about your sex life.
oh hi mark
good advice for any workplace
But I’m a hooker
then let your clients fill in the blanks, even if that’s letting them believe this is your first time. unless you think you can charoe extra for that. then do
In that case, you’re just talking shop
Yes.
But how can I impress people with my competitive qualities? I had fourteen sex last night, and before that I did four sets of three sex at a time.
I’m even the speedruns any% TAS WR holder at 3.19 seconds.
Do my colleagues not need to know about this???
You can mention it by asking about office etiquette on Lemmy.
Ah nice one cheers friend!
Just start saying ‘they’ for everyone that’s work related. No matter on LGBT status.
Makes it easier to not fuck up.I work with an enby and we use they/them. It often confuses people because sometimes we say a sentence then sub he/her for they and there isnt enough context for anyone to know who were talking about. I can’t imagine how strange it would be to only use they/them. Race and gender are our go to descriptors you’d get used to it pretty quick tho
I already do this with because of how many people I know and work with that have names not exclusively used by men or women.
I work with enough foreigners that I almost HAVE to do this since I rarely see them face to face and have no real indicators aside from their name. If your name is 20 characters long and 18 of them are consonants, I’m gonna use “they” at work, just to avoid any undue offense. So far, if someone had a problem with me it was because of my employer, not my own words or behavior.
People are seriously downvoting this?? Hot dayum lemmy really is growing!
As a trans person, no, do not do this. This is known as degendering people. It shows a total disregard for putting forth any effort to understand or respect others. We always know when people do this because it is still misgendering when you know their pronouns are not they/them.
While using they/them pronouns for all queer people or using a person’s name instead of a pronoun might feel easier for certain people, this is also a form of misgendering called “degendering.”
https://lgbtq.ucsf.edu/pronouns-101
It feels gross, it’s not a viable solution.
If you’re going to take people’s honest attempts at being polite as an attack, you’re going to have a bad life.
Victim blaming and belittling other people’s problems is also lame, try not to do that, either.
“Ow this hurts me please stop”
“If you take this as an attack, you’re dumb and will be miserable, so just don’t”
Edit: that being said, if it’s an honest attempt, that’s chill af. But you can never really tell anybody’s motives, so here’s this advice on what to do instead(see above article). ‘The path to hell is paved with good intentions’, etc.
I’m gonna assume you mean well, but can you see where it’s probably better to just learn and respect somebody’s pronouns? I don’t think it’s that tough, is it? Like if you really don’t know, just ask. Using they/them is fine in that meantime 👍 but like learning somebody’s name, you should probably put some effort in at some point.
You really put words in my mouth and seem to be a very negative human being.
I’m sorry, let’s start over.
Hi, what’s up?
No thanks
Did I do something to insult you?
I think where you’re messing up is making the assumption that the person will stick with “they” even after learning pronouns. Defaulting to they when a person doesn’t know is just the smart, respectful play. As long as the person makes an honest effort to use the correct pronoun when corrected, that’s all that can be asked.
Being respectful is definitely the heart of it. I think it’s important to make a show of goodwill and listen even if you accidentally fuck stuff up. We’re all human and make mistakes, and like you say, it’s the honest effort that makes all the difference and is all that’s ever really asked.
Hey, enby here. While I definitely benefit from they being a default I have enough binary trans friends who have this experience. What the person you are replying to is giving you is something referred to as nuance. A solve put forward by a well meaning cis person doesn’t automatically work just because it seems like it should to you. Sometimes it causes new problems and when someone tells you about them it’s a good idea to not assume it’s them trying to be a dick or difficult about something but actually explaining why that solve isn’t always a good thing.
If your intention is to make a trans person actually comfortable instead of getting defensive then listening when these things come up instead of telling them they are trying to be trouble on purpose is the play.
Not everything works for every trans person and inside the trans community there is something sometimes referred to as “the coward’s they”. It’s a well known phenomenon where a physical transition gets to a certain point the brain stops easily registering and sorting someone as being their birth sex because they seemlessly look and act as their gender so the automatic neurological system of assigning them a sex value flips fully to the new and desired setting. You see it on conservative media sometimes where they slip up and use the actual correct pronouns and have to correct themselves back over to using the wrong pronouns… Problem being is it causes the same mental redirect issues for a Conservative actively dodging the automatic reaction as learning to use Non-binary pronouns so as a compromise these people use “they” instead because it is easier to trick the sorter and strand themselves in the safe neutral ground where they can identify a person as “not actually a woman/man” without triggering their audience by using correct pronouns for a trans person.
When you use they/them pronouns for a binary trans person it’s interpreted by the brain of the trans person as you seeing and reacting to all the aspects of their body that makes them visibly trans and your brain’s automatic sex recognition system sorting them into this “not enough” category. It’s effectively less hurtful than full misgendering… But it still pings the bit of the brain that is seeing their own body through your perception via your words. It causes they same dysphoric reaction where their mind picks over all the parts of their body that would cause you to react by misgendering or degendering them. The whole point of preferred pronouns is to help us stop that mental reaction from happening as much.
It is perfectly safe to use they/them pronouns for cis people who do not have dysphoric reactions at all and for non-binary people who actively use those pronouns but if someone rocks up looking like they are trying to project a full binary situation it’s worth going for the full binary pronoun option because they are specifically putting in the work to be as obvious as possible so that people know that’s what they want.
Use they, unless you know their pronouns. Unfortunately, a lot of people use “they” because they don’t want to use the correct pronouns and it seems more innocent than just overtly misgendering someone.
This they gets it.
you’d use something like “person” to replace “guy” since “guy” is not a pronoun like he/she/they.
Right it was meant to be facetious but I appreciate you posting this nonetheless.
I like them and folks
þey
I assume op is English speaking, but just fyi this doesn’t work in every language, would make things a lot simpler.
So misgender 95-99% of people? Okay then.
It’s a good place to start. Sometimes a trans person wants gendered pronouns. But it’s better to use something neutral than to use the wrong one. I have always found that if you use the actual right pronouns, even once, it shows you are trying and that is appreciated forever.
I’m trans, and have also worked with trans kids. Sometimes outed myself when it was safe - showing young trans men that yes, you can be a man.
It really comes down to “what name and pronouns would you me to call you by?”
If you want to go above and beyond: “would you like me to correct/step in for you if someone calls you by the wrong names/pronouns?” I feel this is a place where adult advocates can have good impact.
“Does your family know/should I use your legal name when talking to your family?”
See the child as a person who deserves dignity and respect, who is in a vulnerable position and does need unconditional support. Which is true for all children. You don’t have to put up a progress flag or wear a rainbow pin - these can certainly be very good things to do - but at the end of the day, just honor the child.
Im curious what could come off as a joke to you but would offend a trans person but not offend other (similarly aged) people.
If your joke might be offensive to anyone, its probably best to save it for outside of the workplace if you share it at all.
Not saying dont make any jokes, just that your jokes shouldn’t be referencing someones gender or appearance or at the expense of someone else in general.
If your joke might be offensive to anyone, its probably best to save it for outside of the workplace if you share it at all.
That’s not good advice. Any joke can be offensive to someone - especially when people are committed to being offended.
I get where you’re coming from, and we’ve all seen bad faith “advice” seeking (sea lioning), but also most of us have interacted with people who are well-meaning yet know they have tons of learned behaviors they’ve never needed to question.
For example, a friend had a boss in a male-dominated industry (construction) who, at the end of a client lunch with several cis men, bid them farewell with “bye ladies.” When they were back in the car she called him out on it “is ‘ladies’ supposed to imply something?” and he immediately admitted “dammit I know. I’m sorry.”
She knew he knew as he said it that it wasn’t the right thing and just hadn’t considered it before, but it took situations like that to make him consider it in advance. And it sounds like he did. She said he began to make eye contact to check his wording in meetings, which she took to indicate it being present in his mind, that he was actually trying.
I’m just saying asking and trying to consider little things in advance is ally behavior and should be encouraged unless it’s obviously in bad faith.
I didnt think the poster was in bad faith, i was just genuinely curious as im not really around environments like that these days so i kind of assumed it would be something sexist or creepy.
Ah understood. From the conscientious wording, I would guess that’s the sort of stuff they worked on quite a few years ago. But I’m wrong often enough, good looking out.
Its impossible to know if your joke might be offensive to others when you live different lifestyles.
It’s like telling people not to serve food that might be prohibited by the religion of one of their dinner guests when they have never interacted with the religion before.
What OP does here is trying to educate himself, which is the right move, in my opinion.
Call me whatever you want at this point, but if it comes down to “A [type of person] has shown up at my job, what topics should I avoid?” it’s time to start updating the resume.
Reactions like this do nothing to further anything. Pointing at a post where someone acknowledges their lack of understanding and ignorance, a post where someone is trying to be more open and accepting, and telling them that they are the problem and should give up is as close minded and bigoted as the person you’re making OP out to be
Someone that lacks empathy?
Things I am likely to say to my team at work:
“I emailed you an STL. Please print two of them, and be ready to print 18 more if the customer approves.”
“Put on your safety glasses.”
“The lathe’s coolant pump is not working, I think it may be the contactor. Take a look at it when you first clock in tomorrow and let me know what parts we need if any; I’m going to need it up and running by Thursday.”
“Safety glasses go on the front of your head, not the top.”
“SomeCo has our steel order ready, take the company truck and pick it up. Make sure to get a copy of the P.O.”
“Put. On. Your safety glasses.”
“How’s it coming on those base plates? Can we get started on the brackets yet or are we still waiting?”
“If you get vitreous humor on my drill press, you’re the one that’s gonna clean it up.”
If you can’t handle being spoken to in this manner, you are not going to last long on my team.
Those are not the only words you utter at work. Don’t be ridiculous.
You are completely and entirely missing the point of this post.
When new people from different cultures or backgrounds assimilate into a new work place, being culturally sensitive is expected and the standard.
Yeah I’m more or less with the Republicans on this one. Either you’re suffering from gender dysphoria, and you should seek treatment from qualified mental health personnel, or you went on Tumblr as a tweenager and instead of being a greaser or punk or goth you’re “trans.” Either way, this is not your employer or coworker’s problem.
Gender dysphoria is a mental problem, in the sense that it causes mental distress to be in the wrong body. The treatment is not therapy, it’s surgery to correct the body to fit the mind. A therapist can help identify the cause of the distress, but if the cause is the body then that therapist will recommend surgery.
I recall seeing research suggesting that trans people’s brainwaves more closely match that of their “desired” gender than that of their sex. It reinforces the idea that being transgender isn’t a mental issue, it’s a physical issue that causes mental distress.
A trans man isn’t a woman who merely thinks she’s a man, it’s actually a man inside that skull. Only the body underneath it is wrong. It’s as if tomorrow you woke up in the body of the opposite gender. That will (after the novelty wears off) start distressing you. Trans people didn’t wake up like that, they were born with that feeling.
As expected, a complete lack of empathy
You’re right. If that dude works with you, I’d also suggest them to brush up their resume.
Empathy is a really stupid idea when all you’ll ever be is what people can extract from you.
Hey there, who hurt you so bad you gave up empathy all together?
Edit: added a missing ‘up’ in that sentence.
It must strain a lot of brain cells parroting ol musky.
Generally, keep humor work related, and it’ll be fine no matter who it is. Well, there’s always that asshole that thinks you have to be a robot at work, but with that sort, it doesn’t matter anyway.
Beyond that, either stay neutral with pronouns, or use those that a person introduces.
I promise you, just those two things are going to go a long way in establishing respect and camaraderie.
Humor is the big one. I would start thinking about the jokes that co-workers make, and if everybody would think they’re funny. Not just trans folks, but any kind of joke that has a butt of the joke or a stereotype might be good to start getting away from.
Agreed completely :)
Trans people are weird, but so is everyone else.
Ehhhhhh, I get what you’re trying to say, but also, yikes?
I mean I was trying to be cute there, but I genuinely think that this it the way to proper respect and non-bigotry in the workplace. You have lots of oddball people in every workplace of more than 3 people, and you’re supposed to function with all of them. Trans is just one more. And of course it’s all subjective, so the people you might think are perfectly normal are completely bizarre to some other people and vice versa. And you have to navigate around that too.
If you wanna go the extra mile, skimming an ally guide for 10 minutes, looking up some terminology and concepts, would reduce awkwardness by a fair bit. I certainly would have avoided a half dozen missteps if I did some reading.
This is super helpful, thank you!
Probably wouldn’t be a bad idea to do something along the lines of stating upfront that “if anyone in the company does anything to offend you, please report it to the appropriate channels. You’ll have our full support. We’re here to get work done, not to make people feel bad”
You’re not likely going to say by accident something they haven’t heard before, or to offend them in a new and novel way, But establishing and occasionally reinforcing the fact that they don’t have to tolerate it, that putting up with abuse is not part of their job, and that they have the boss’s backing at the same level of the non-LGBTQ employees should they find themselves being abused or offended, would probably go a decent way in minimizing the risk of something actually bad happening.
please report it to the appropriate channels
Telling them that you personally will be there for them is really the only guarantee you can make without blindly relying on third parties to act with compassion. So telling them to come to you so that you can then together go through the rest of the process is imo the better idea. They can always choose to just ignore you, but making them go to some shitty HR office by themselves also sucks.
Yeah, I’d only encourage reporting if I knew 100% beyond a shadow of a doubt that the person who would be taking the report is also an ally. And even then, I’d still hesitate to encourage it.
My workplace is… Interesting. I work in an arts department for an employer which doesn’t do a lot of art otherwise. Each department is managed by a specific person in HR. My department happens to be managed by a raging transphobe. We also happen to have the highest amount of trans people per capita than any other department… Because, ya know, art.
Our HR person requires that they use their deadname for all of their work stuff. Their work email uses the initials for their deadname. Their Windows username uses their deadname. Their RFID ID badge and name tag both use their deadname. Et cetera… She claims it is company policy to require official government names on everything.
Except it’s not. That policy doesn’t exist. It’s just something she makes up every time a trans person gets hired. There’s even someone in HR who uses a chosen name for all of their work stuff. They literally share an office. Our hiring manager has tried to go through or around this one specific transphobe multiple times, but gets bounced back to her every single time. Because apparently the “your department has a specific HR person” is a rule that is enforced throughout all of HR, but the deadname thing is only enforced by our specific HR person.
The hiring manager does what he can to insulate them from it, but there are certain things he can’t control. For instance, he orders them new custom name tags, so they don’t have to walk around with their deadname stuck to their shirt. But he can’t order new RFID ID badges, because those are printed by our IT department, and they use whatever name is in the system. He can’t change their windows username, or their work email address. To put things into perspective, our department is over 25% trans or nonbinary. That’s over 5x higher than any other department…
And what are those trans employees going to do? Go to HR to report it? As cops are fond of saying: “We have investigated ourselves and found no wrongdoing.”
Re: what are trans employees supposed to do.
At one point the path was documenting disparate behavior and taking up the lawsuit path, but I’m pretty sure my employer could write transgender on the reason for termination line and the eeoc won’t touch it under this administration
Well maybe only say this if it’s true
“… and if I accidentally say or do something offensive, tell me and I’ll try to learn better.”
This whole thread is very good
You’re not likely going to say by accident something they haven’t heard before, or to offend them in a new and novel way
Not OP, but you underestimate my foot in mouth capacity.
20 years ago, my sister was dating a jock. Real body builder type. Probably a bigger musclehead than most pro-wrestlers.
What I was trying to convay is that we should make a superhero costume for him to wear, and make a comic book out of it.
What was percieved instead is that he should run around town and suck everybodys nuts in his mouth for their approval.
I DARE you to try to connect how that came out so wrongly worded.
You can’t just leave us hanging like that, how did you word it?
