From both a technical perspective and if the maintainers of these anti-cheat will consider porting or re-writing kernel level anti-cheat to work on linux, is it possible? Do you think that the maintainers of kernel level anti-cheat will be adamant in not doing it, or that the kernel even supports it or will support it. I think that if it ever happens, there will be a influx of people moving to linux, or abandoning their duelboots, and that alot of people will hate that such a thing is available on linux.
AFAIK Microsoft have plans to block kernel level anti-cheat on Windows. After the CrowdSec issues last year, they’re rethinking which types of programs should even be allowed to run in kernel space.
Edit: I was wrong. They actually want to increase what can be done in user mode, to reduce reliance on kernel mode code.
They actually want to increase what can be done in user mode, to reduce reliance on kernel mode code.
That’s basically what Apple did with macOS 11. They deprecated kernel extensions and replaced them with “system extensions”, and created new APIs so security tools, VPNs and such could function without kernel-level privileges.
i assume the problem with league of legends since last year is because they switched to kernel level anticheat then? would be nice if they get kicked in the face for the anti-linux decision they made so we can start playing again :P
I just itch my moba itch with dota
I tried Dota but it feels too different :(
Fair enough
Yes, linux does not work exactly because they require this kernel level anticheat. But guess which os is supported without this anticheat… MacOs…
I guess it’s easier to dual boot Linux than osx for cheaters and I think most of them wouldn’t buy apple hardware just to get out of bronze.
They don’t. One article lied, people never read anything but the title and here we are this getting mentioned every once in a while.
Thanks. I looked into it a bit more and it looks like they actually want to increase what can be done in userland, to reduce the reliance on kernel mode. That’s still a good solution, if things the anti-cheat code needs to do can be moved into userland.
It’s the other way around. Windows will stop supporting kernel level anti-cheat because of Crowdstrike
They want to provide APIs that basically do an equal job but will restrict direct access.
Good one
Sure hope not. If I wanted to run rookits I’d just use Windows. Why bother with Linux?
This is why I don’t want more Linux adoption and don’t understand people cheering every new user. We’re in a sweet spot where a lot of games enable userland anticheat while we don’t get kernel level ports (however they may be shipped doesn’t matter). The only thing that’ll come out of more adoption is kernel level anticheat ports that’ll probably work with a few corporate backed distros only and we’ll actually lose the games we have today. Because those will switch over the kernel level alternatives too.
The only way I’d like Linux to be a generic multiplayer platform is server side anticheats. It is very obviously the way to go and we are seeing extremely slow adoption (e.g. Marvel Rivals).
On one side, I’m one of those glad for people coming to Linux because Linux is truly fantastic and it can make your life easier on many things, I’m happy for them.
On the other side, I share your concerns, because everything that gets adopted by the masses is inevitably subject to enshittification, I would never want that to happen to Linux.
We should find a sweet middle-point tho I have no idea what that would be.
I think the more people who aren’t using corporate operating systems, the better.
I’m firmly against Microsoft, Red Hat, and Ubuntu.
TBH I’m not sure wider adoption would worsen things ? Gaming distros would probably ship bullshit anticheat modules by default while the others would not, or at most provide some documentation on how to opt in.
I think it’s quite similar to the situation with NVIDIA proprietary drivers? (I don’t own a graphics card so I’m not super aware on this topic)
My point is you would either have to run those modules on Linux or not play the games. Which is the same as running them on Windows or not play the games with the exception that you’d lose the games that run on Linux with userland anticheat now.
I can’t wait until I am able to give random programs kernel access on my system! That doesn’t sound problematic in the least! After all, I have the fullest confidence that for companies developing anticheat, my security is their highest concern! /s
@phantomwise @SpiderUnderUrBed Every program on your system has “kernel access”, it’s called “syscalls”, but actually being able to modify the kernel, that is another matter.
I surely hope they never will, no user program should ever be allowed to run at kernel level, that’s what malware does.
I personally avoid those kind of games, but those who won’t can dual-boot.
Same
deleted by creator
All true. And yet, plenty of people do want to play those games. And there are other games (Borked) which also cannot be played no matter what. Really annoying, that.
deleted by creator
Short answer: no
Long answer: only the most important things should even have such low-level access to the system. A fucking game is not in that category. Nooooooo
Obligatory Fuck Denuvo. If I had virtually infinite money, I’d do a hostile takeover of Denuvo and burn it to the ground.
What does it even mean? People can recompile the kernel to turn the crap off.
And then the game wouldn’t work.
You don’t even need to do that. You could just blacklist or delete the module.
The game wouldnt work, but you could do it.
Absolutely nothing prevents somebody from writing a kernel level anticheat on Linux.
Users would throw a fit, and it would be way easier to bypass, but it certainly could be made.
It would need to be open source, distributing proprietary kernel modules is a nightmare that can cause the OS to fail to boot after every kernel update. An open source anticheat kernel module would probably be useless and easy to bypass.
It doesn’t “need” to be anything. It could be a DKMS module that is mandatory for playing a game.
Whether people would like it and use it is a completely different story.
deleted by creator
AFAIK the current anticheat systems on Linux only run in userspace not at kernel level. This does mean Linux is theoretically easier to bypass compared to windows, some games just dont seem to want to take that risk. For as you said 3% of the market.
I personally disagree with that stance though, because all it takes is a hardware device and all software anticheats are useless no matter the os (think a raspberry pi, and capture card). So anticheat is really a losing battle anyways.
Yeah… Apex Legends dropped Linux support a while ago and that’s one of the reasons they cited; and tbf, there were publicly available Linux cheats that ran under proton.
But there’s also loads of publicly available “external” cheats that run the way you described. Some run through a virtual machine even. It’s just not a robust solution for preventing cheating, and mostly hurts the legit Linux players.
we’re maaaaaybe 3% of the market on a good day, so they say “fuck it”
So true. And worse than that, we’re probably also the 3% most likely to skip buying a game that requires anti-cheat, anyway. Many of us are famously un-friendly toward closed source code running with invasive permissions.
It’s a lot more than just “a few dev hours”. You need to invest in training your testers on Linux, potentially purchasing new hardware, invest in programmers that can deal with writing for Linux, etc… Just because something like BattlEye has a checkbox for Linux support doesn’t mean that all it takes is to click the button and rebuild your game.
I hope to fuck not.
The game developers could if they wanted to, but I hope they won’t. I will not willingly install a rootkit on any of my computers. I wouldn’t buy or pirate a game that requires one even if it could run on Linux. I don’t even like running user level anti cheat, but at least that can be run in a sandbox.
kernel level anti cheat is malware
abandon ranked, return to private lobbies
I’m not a programmer or cheater or anything, but I think the answer is yes and no. Yes it could technically be done and even work as intended as long as the device is locked down to prevent the user from replacing the shipped kernel (which would be a bad thing for users). However, savvy people could (in theory) make custom kernels that lie to the kernel module, causing the module to report there is no cheating when there is. It’s my understanding that it’s close to the current situation with Windows and virtual machines and anticheat: you can cheat by running your game in a VM and then have that virtual hardware extract secret information or flip bits in the right spots. Most competitive games will refuse to run in a VM for this reason.
Kernel level anti cheats require secure boot. You can’t just “lie” and load an unsigned kernel.
You can add your own signing keys to the UEFI and boot an modified bootloader and Kernel that you have signed yourself. So yes, it is possible to “lie”
For such a locked down system, akin to game consoles or smartphones, would be needed. And even those get jail broken and manipulated, so “total security” on there is not complete but easier to check and ensure. Another way to make sure that the code is not manipulated would be to put all those games into the cloud and have every player only play via streaming. All the code would then run on secured, locked down and verified machines.
And then your keys will be rejected by the anticheat. Just because you can sign your kernel and load it does not mean a kernel module can’t verify who signed it.
Yes, but with a modified Kernel you can fake what the anticheat reads when it checks the key, so you just feed it the key it wants to see instead of your own. The anticheat module would need run on a higher level then the Kernel itself to prevent that, for example alongside the CPU (like the Intel Management Engine).
I am not an expert on secure boot so I can’t tell whether that’s possible or not. But if it is, what stops people from doing that with Windows now?
You can’t really change the code of the windows Kernel and boot your own, that’s one of the things stopping people now
Another technique that helps is to limit the amount of information shared with clients to need to know info. This can be computationally intensive server-side and hard to get right … but it can help in many cases. There are evolving techniques to do this.
In FPS games, there can also be streaming input validation. eg. Accurate fire requires the right sequence of events and/or is used for cheat detection. At the point where cheats have to emulate human behaviour, with human-like reaction times, the value of cheating drops.
That’s the advanced stuff. Many games don’t even check whether people are running around out of bounds, flying through the air etc. Known bugs and map exploits don’t get fixed for years.
Linux secure boot was a little weird last I checked. The kernel and modules don’t need to be secure boot signed. Most distros can use shim to pass secure boot and then take over the secure boot process.
There are dkms kernel modules that are user compiled. These are signed using a machine owner key. So the machine owner could for sure compile their own malicious version and still be in a secure boot context.
This is where TPMs, measured boot, and remote attestation come in.
You can run whatever kernel you want, but if it is not an approved kernel, you wouldn’t be able to attest to running an approved kernel; allowing whatever DRM scheme the developer put in to active.
I believe this is how the higher levels of Android’s Play Integrity system work.
When Microsoft first proposed something like that a couple decades ago, it was widely seen as the nightmarish corporate power grab it was. Even mainstream, non-techy publications were critical.
I believe this is how the higher levels of Android’s Play Integrity system work.
It is.
How the fuck did this become acceptable?
deleted by creator
Is it possible to have kernel-level anti-cheat in Linux?
Yes, Absolutely. But, people would throw a fit. There is probably no way to opensource it without also making it easier to bypass. There would be a concerted effort to reverse engineer it and remove it from the system while maintaining functionality
Maintainers of anti-cheat software are not volunteers. If there was an order from management to port the system to Linux, it would happen. It’s just that with the Linux userbase as small as it is, it’s simply not profitable to cater to them.
I think that if it ever happens, there will be a influx of people moving to linux, or abandoning their duelboots
I fully disagree. The thing keeping regular people away from Linux as an OS is not that they can’t play some online game with Anti-cheat.
Linux is in a weird place right now. It’s actually a perfect fit for non-technical users that use their computers for email, web browsing, and Netflix, but those users don’t know what an operating system is, let alone that there are options. More technical users tend to require more specialized applications, and if there isn’t a native linux port available, you have to do some research for alternatives, or to find a way to run it in wine.
Windows is shitty, but it’s comfortable. And I know that it will run any software I throw at it with basically no research or troubleshooting.
There is probably no way to opensource it without also making it easier to bypass.
I want to highlight this in case OP missed it. Your point here is critical.
Now I’m going to nerd out a bit about it:
To expand on your points above (for OP), there’s an impasse here between the anti-cheat developer and the distro developers.
The anti-cheat developer needs support from the distro developer to get their anti-cheat packages signed, to allow them to run in the kernel. Any package not signed by the distro developer that tries to run at kernel level will be treated by the OS as a virus. (Windows has this protection as well.)
Getting the code signed is pretty easy. The only requirement is sharing the source code, so the distro developers can make sure there’s nothing nasty in it.
But the anti-cheat developers feel that they need to never share their source code, to prevent cheating. In some cases, they have even have contracts that prevent them from legally sharing parts of their source code (if licensed from a third party).
That’s also not a problem. All they have to do is sign a binding contract for secrecy with every contributor to the distro, and then privately share their source code, and get it signed.
On Windows, that means signing a contract with Microsoft. On Mac, with Apple.
But on Linux, is just means tracking down and making separate agreements with a few thousand independent individuals…
So the technical solution is pretty simple: share code, get code signed, run in kernel.
But the contrasting needs of everyone involved make it unlikely on Linux.
Interestingly, an Anti-cheat developer who felt very confident that their code was unbeatable, could just publish it publicly, and get it signed and running quite quickly.
But uh… Most anti-cheat is also pretty low quality code, according to most estimations.
@Godort @SpiderUnderUrBed That’s really the conundrum, in an open source kernel, where can you put anti-cheat that someone else can’t readily pull out?
@SpiderUnderUrBed The true cheating is what is doing microsoft and closed source companies
