I think progressives never thought about this because we banked on immigration and demographic change allowing us to win culturally and electorally but the issue is immigrants tend to be overwhelmingly male, that is how Trump won actually he won over a lot of Hispanic,Black,Asian and indigenous men who feel humiliated by a new culture, economy and world.
So what can we do rhetorically and policy wise to win more young men over ?
- Stop dismissing that men have problems which require addressing
A lot of people say things like “men have it the best, they don’t need help!” That’s nonsense. Everyone who is dealing with problems and is suffering needs help. Helping men doesn’t mean you stop helping women, we should help everyone who needs help.
- Stop purity tests and infighting
Progressives today are truly awful when it comes to this. I’m not talking about including nazis, I’m talking about attacking people who agree with you on 90% of topics. Like if someone thinks trans people should be totally treated as the gender they express in every facet of society, except they shouldn’t be allowed to compete in women’s physical sports competitions.
- Messaging needs HUGE improvement
This is another one that progressives have a terrible problem with. They do a terrible job of letting people know how they’re being helped, and they also use language that gives the impression that they’re against you. For example “the patriarchy” is a terrible term that makes men feel attacked, even though that’s not what it’s about at all. What most people actually mean to refer to is “gender norms”, meaning concepts like ‘men should fuck a lot of women and not express their emotions’. “Gender norms” is a much more accurate term and it doesn’t make men feel like they’re being attacked.
“Real men take care of their neighbors and vulnerable people, not just themselves and their family”? Honestly I have no fucking idea lol. Not sure that sounds catchy enough though in comparison to the incel bullshit that youtube clowns are feeding young boys these days.
Reframe spending as stimulating the economy.
Create jobs through a green new deal that allows for upeard mobility for the motivated. Small business grants.
Create tax incentives for, endorse and give loam grants to businesses that provide workers with a share of a company. Whether co-op type thing or convoluted stock share program.
Young men want to matter, and they want to see the results of their effort.
I honestly don’t think progressive politics is the problem. When it comes to the US. The only other party is the democrats and at best they are center at best but really they are just Republicans from 20 years ago. From a fiscal sense.
Both times they sold the American people to pick them just because the other side is worse. The problem is most people don’t want to pick the lesser of two evils. They want to pick something that will change their lives for the better.
The problem is when Democrats don’t really have a platform or communicate that platform effectively. But the other guy is saying he will fix the problems in people’s lives even if they are lies. Most low information voters will roll the dice on the chance he is not lying. Because the other side has brought nothing to the table at all.
The logic i have seen with a man like that broke my heart was this. He said i care about the plate of Trans folks and other minorities but like on an airplane you have to put on your own mask on first before you help others. So when you are out of work or can’t afford to live. The culture wars feels like less a priority for those type of people.
When looking with that lense it makes sense how people voted. People with higher education and income voted Dem becase they wanted to help others.
People with lower income voted Republican out of desperation and was easy for Republicans to sell the snake oil of. If we hurt these small group of people. All your problems will be solved. Then those same people are hurt more when they find out it was all a lie.
Read up on history and how Germany was after World War I. It’s like having a crystal ball of what’s going to happen next.
So funny thing is republicans say the same thing. There is a famous quote ““Conservatism is progressivism driving the speed limit.””
I would argue the left needs to take some responsibility with getting distracted in the culture war and losing site of the working class. Look at Bernie you can go back to 2016 and see people saying that bernie was a bro candidate and not progressive enough compared to hillarly on insert x wedge issue here
Yep that’s why they fucked over Bernie so hard. He was what we always wanted in a progressive president. But since the rich area playing both size and acting like they different the DNC sabotaged him twice and now we see the result.
Male stereotypes have to be culturally broken first. Men are being taught that showing any emotions other than anger and hate is effeminate. They’re being taught that empathy is weakness, that education is stupidity, that freedom is slavery.
Everything that makes men human is being stripped away, leaving a husk of burning hate awaiting marching orders. They need to reconnect to humanity.
I am going to be honest, I think women need to be a a part of this. We are used to being right in regards to gender conflict because usually we are but one thing I agree with men on is that every woman says they want men to share their feelings more but many women lose respect for a man they see as weak.
Bell Hooks talks a lot about this so you can go read her.
I do not find that to be the case at all in my circles, it’s usually the guys giving shit to other guys for expressing emotion and the emotionally expressive people (including women) riffing them for back for being assholes. There’s certainly a song and dance to doing this effectively.
I don’t really think it should be a gendered expectation but rather an everyone expectation. If someone is being vulnerable with you that wouldn’t otherwise, don’t be an asshole. If someone needs to be called out for exhibiting rude behaviour to someone else, do so in the way that works for your circumstances.
Frankly, I was going to say almost the opposite. Conservatives are appealing to young men by decrying the “woke” process of breaking down those stereotypes. It’s a reaction to those “traditional” masculine traits being challenged by a more enlightened society.
The key is not breaking down those gender norms, but rechanneling that masculine energy and “gender pride” into something healthy and beneficial. We need to reframe the conversation, because when you attack, people instinctively defend. Instead, we should model the new masculinity, one where being tough means being confident enough to stand out or be yourself. Where being a bro means being a friend, not a douchebag. Real men have the strength to admit their faults and ask for help. Real power is punching up, not down, and real bravery is accepting people for who they are.
Contrast someone like Joe Rogan with Pedro Pascal. Which one is a “Real Man™”? Which one should we celebrate and focus on? Boys need role models, because we don’t know how to handle our hormones at an age when everything is confusing. If you tell them their instincts are wrong, they will retreat to a safe space where someone else will tell them that society is wrong and they should be as gross and misogynistic as they can be.
Real men are creative. Real men are kind. Real men are curious. Real men are sincere. Real men admit mistakes and accept consequences. Real men lift others up. Real men are able to ask for help. Real men are comfortable with their sexuality, and are not afraid of exploring their preferences.
All children are born selfish and frightened. We have to learn to be better through empathy. Without positive role models, we cannot learn to overcome those selfish impulses, and we cannot stand up to the bullies that will try to sell the red pill.
Because no matter what we do, there will always be conservative dipshits talking about how oppressed they are because they can’t insult people by calling them “girly” or “gay” or “retarded” anymore. There will always be angry gym rats who think big biceps and a fast car will fix their insecurities. There will always be bullies, and we should always stand up to them.
Also, every boy should watch Ted Lasso. Seriously, there has never been a better breakdown of male stereotypes than that show.
Who is “teaching” them this?
40 something male that has struggled to overcome toxic masculinity. I mean I was literally slapped silly by my parents and grandparents for crying when I was 5 and told “boys dont cry”. I mean I’ve cried 3 times in my life before coming to terms with needing to change. Eventalking to my wife it’s taken years for her to accept that Im allowed to feel more emotions than anger and laughter.
Im a foster parent now and it’s been a lot of work to internalize my stuff but damn im supportive if the boys we have want to feel their feelings. 3 year old wanted a rainbow shirt and I got it for him but his dickehad machismo father called him a faggot. Oh boy I made sure he wore his favorite shirt for every visit.
The first thing is that progressives need to stop being intellectually dishonest. The movement needs to admit that the world view is a technocratic one in which the best course of action given the evidence available is the one that will guide the decisions of the movement, not popular sentiment.
As of right now the progressive agenda looks like a mass of contradictions whose only identity is opposition to MAGA and the right with such intensity that the right has in fact co-opted many of the stances that traditionally belonged on the left, losing the support of the working class.
Seen through a Marxist lens, it is not surprising, the progressive movement in the US is not a worker’s movement but rather a managerial class movement.
I agree that we need to be more technocratic as I think democracy is kind of running it’s course in the world. Maga also has a lot of contradictions to be fair
It doesn’t matter what MAGA does or what MAGA is, progressives need to define themselves independently of that. But a popular workers movement it is not. That crown for right or wrong belongs to MAGA.
Seen through a Marxist lens, it is not surprising, the progressive movement in the US is not a worker’s movement but rather a managerial class movement.
And managerial class inherently whores for the regime while pretending to be the “good” guys
That’s not the managerial class.
The managerial class are the office employees, very generally “knowledge workers”.
its just too disorganized, no coherent or concrete motives for progressive.
It’s not a rhetorical problem. It’s a propaganda problem. People aren’t being reasoned into right wing politics. It’s being beaten into their heads day and night by talk radio, cable news, local news, and YouTube; and this has been going on very deliberately for decades. The right wing powers-that-be have been busily, patiently, creating a massive, pervasive propaganda machine for a long time while the left sat on their hands. We’re now seeing the results: a world where the right can do and say literally anything they want without consequence. Their base is very literally brainwashed through brute force repeated messaging that nobody can compete with.
We needed the Democrats to do something about this propaganda machine before it became unstoppable. They already didn’t do that.
The best thing any of us can do is try to steer kids away from the propaganda before they get sucked in.
How do you do that, though? The rich and powerful aren’t going to suddenly start pouring their resources into progressive messaging, and there’s only so much you can do when you’re diametrically opposed to them.
this is the gordion knot that the “let’s respect the nazi’s viewpoint instead of mocking and ridiculing them” people have allowed us all to become tangled up in. fascists have been allowed to take over education, mass media, social media, news media, and every other possible channel of communication, making avoidance of their propaganda almost impossible, let alone keeping kids away. they’ve pretty much defeated public libraries, and next will be academic libraries and higher ed altogether. they don’t want anyone exploring any ideas that didn’t originate with the fascist regime
cult programming and mind control, after it’s already happened, is extremely difficult to reverse. used to be a team of people would have to involuntarily abduct a person and perform intense deprogramming methods over a course of days or weeks to get someone out of the cult mindset. and that was just for one single person. btw anyone who tries to tell you maga is not a full-blown textbook definition of cult is either part of the cult, or in denial of reality. same as the maga cult.
now we have millions of people simultaneously believing that they’re perpetual victims and also invincible and superior to their supposed “oppressors”-- anyone woke, women, mexicans, lgbtq…pretty much anyone who isn’t straight, white, male, evangelical, republican, nth generation citizens.
i wish i had a feasible answer, but the outlook is grim
As individuals, we can only influence our friends, family, and kids as best we can. Sometimes that’s not at all. We’re all now familiar with the trope of “Fox News ate my parents’ brains”.
This isn’t a game or a movie that necessarily has to have a happy ending. Sometimes shit’s just fucked. As long as the propaganda machine is in place, millions of people will be brainwashed.
Better marketing.
Drop policies that have been consistent long-term losers like expanded gun control.
Force through policies that improve their lives at the cost of others, for example, healthcare paid for by taxing billionaires
Drop policies that have been consistent long-term losers like expanded gun control.
Suppressors are a hearing safety device/noise pollution reducer and Democrat politicians describe them like they get all their information from a John Wick movie. It would be so easy for the party to drop the matter entirely and throw politically-homeless gun owners a bone by taking suppressors off the NFA.
Force through policies that improve their lives at the cost of others, for example, healthcare paid for by taxing billionaires
Yep! Follow that up with policies that improve people’s lives and we have a ticket that writes itself.
Maybe stop hating their guts…
deleted by creator
Pride in intellectual achievement would be a good start.
Look at what men are missing and how the right is selling it to them.
Men aren’t doing so hot right now, emotionally and mentally. They feel like they are not manly, and criticized for trying to be manly or liking manly things. There’s a lack of transitions into manhood, and the bar that is seen as a successful man with a good career is pretty much impossible.
If you have a poor paying job, you’re not manly. If you have a well paying job but it’s blue collar you’re not manly because you’re a dumb working stiff. If you have a white collar job you’re not manly because you’re not doing anything tough with your body. Maybe if you’re a CEO who owns the company but also does rock climbing and bear fighting are you seen as manly enough, maybe.
Then you have these guys, your Andrew Tates and so on, who act very manly and tell you it’s ok to be a man and then spout off some of the most toxic, asinine shit saying that’s how you be a man. And young guys fall for it because they aren’t shown any alternative.
Then on the left you have people who speak ill of men as a whole, and manliness as a whole. Sometimes the criticisms are correct, but a lot of times it’s presented as men overall. If you try to say that it’s not every man out there who’s a monster, you get blasted with criticism for saying “not all men”. They also don’t provide anything positive or solutions for feeling manly, with the best they can be offered is to be more like women.
So young men, especially young cishet men, are actively pushed away from leftist spaces, leaving them feeling demonized by those spaces, and actively pandered to by the right which are offering mind poison dressed up as solutions.
So what do we do? There’s a few things to fix.
-
leftist media has to stop demonizing men and start demonizing actions. Instead of saying “men are rapists” start saying “rapists are bad”. When people start to say things like “cis people are shit” other people need to call them out of it, because if you’re supposed to be the side that accepts people’s gender identity, it should be for all gender identities. It can feel cathartic to rail against the majority demographic, especially when people of that demographic have hurt you, but if you feel that it’s unfair to rail against a group because of the actions of a few members of it, that should apply to all groups. Things like “what’s wrong with the straights” doesn’t help build bonds with allies, and it turns young men away from leftist spaces.
-
there needs to be validation and recognition from the left for problems men have, like suicide, workplace death and heavier prison sentencing. The left needs to show that they are trying to fix these problems, too, instead of telling young men to suck it up and be a man about it because they are the oppressor demographic.
-
there needs to be people who counter toxic masculinity, not with telling men to be more like women, but with positive masculinity. If a man is having emotional or mental problems, toxic masculinity says to push that down. Femininity says it’s ok to be soft and vulnerable. Positive masculinity would say that a real man is true to himself and his feelings and expresses then freely, even if others might ridicule him for it. There’s a subtle difference, and the end result of femininity’s and positive masculinity’s tactic might be the same, i.e. the man expresses those feelings, but the way that they get there is very different. The former makes the man feel less validated in his identity, while the latter uplifts it. The memes where they say stuff like “I always tell my homies I love them before they go to bed” actually work.
-
leftist influencers need to make fighting for the rights of minorities seem manly. Badass. Like a hero. Worthy of praise and celebration.
-
while they won’t get the financial and political backing that the toxic male influencers get, there needs to be positive male influencers who talk about masculinity in a positive way, while promoting the ideas above. There needs to be an alternative, who acts manly but in the fun, positive way, that validates young men’s feelings of inadequacy, frustration, and isolation, while promoting an egalitarian perspective.
-
there needs to be a cultural shift in what makes a man. A shift away from dying in battle or becoming a tycoon, and a resurgence of the working class hero. Mass media itself needs to change and promote positive male figures. It can work and be popular, like in Avatar the Last Airbender. We need to show men that they are still men, and still worthy of love, respect and adoration, even if they aren’t a super soldier or a wealthy elite. A lot of this is counter to capitalistic goals, so it may have to be subversive, but eventually it needs to be made the norm.
-
other men need to continue to step up and speak out about injustice towards minorities and against toxic masculinity behaviors in the day to day, and start decrying those behaviors as unmanly. People need to call Andrew Tate and the like unmanly.
-
ideally, the men’s rights movement should be absorbed by the left and the toxic incels kicked out. It should be done in the name of gender equality. Fixing only woman’s problems won’t solve the patriarchy (which could be changed to a different term so everyone feels like it’s less of an us vs them) and feminists should try to help solve men’s problems directly rather than indirectly. Young men would see feminism as more appealing if feminists actually focused on men’s problems as well, rather than ignoring or worse, demonizing them. Feminism could be rebranded as an egalitarian movement for all sexes and genders, maybe get a name change. If the patriarchy affects everyone, then the focus should be on everyone. Maybe it would have to be a whole new movement entirely.
So it’s a larger problem than just getting more leftist male influencers, and some of those problems are systematic. Some can get worked on today. Talking about masculinity in a positive way, promotive equity, stop both their side and your side from bigotry, and, probably the thing that would get young men on board the most:
Actually trying to solve the problems young men are going through.
brb gotta tell my son I love him
W-Wait, what is this? A well-thought out, constructive, sympathetic comment? Here? I don’t believe it!
Real talk, though: This is an incredibly solid post and I really appreciate you taking the time to actually write all of these points out. It’s rare (or, subjectively, it feels rare) to see an admission that a major shift in how this topic is approached is needed, and I feel just a bit more hopeful seeing someone else put in the time to go this deep on it.
I would only make two add-on comments to your points:
-
With regard to point #6, I agree with the concept - but we have to be careful of how we phrase this. Unless it comes with a major effort to utterly restructure our economy in such a way that either a man’s value is no longer measured in his ability to be successful in a paid position, and/or we restructure our economy to make success more viable, I fear that efforts to support “working class heros” are doomed to become awkward failures as automation continues to steamroll the viability of those positions.
-
One point I don’t see brought up here, though it is touched at in (1) and (8), is that we’ve got to modulate how we discuss so-called “toxic” behavior. When so many seemingly minor behaviors are met with the same levels of disdain, villainization, and even punishment as things like actual sexual assault, it ends up feeling deeply isolating, undermines the point that is trying to be made, and pushes men towards the worst actors.
For #6, I don’t think we necessarily have to move away from the idea that being a man means being a provider and a protector. At least to me those are some of the core tenants of being a man.
The person above you mentioned the men in Avatar the last Airbender. But I also want to add in the men in LOTR, Gomez Adams, Ted Lasso, Kratos in the newer god of war games, and Steve Rodgers.
These are men who are caring, loving, emotional and they are (mostly) able to show those emotions, capable of growth, and able to admit when they are wrong. But they are still men. Men who struggle with anger, men go to war and protect their families, men who are incredibly strong in the face of struggle, men who sometimes make “inappropriate” (to the left) jokes, and men who strive for nothing else but bettering the lives of those in their care.
I sometimes hate that what counts as “positive masculinity” is really just feminity but dressed up in a blue bow. Men are not women and telling them that they can’t be super competitive, can’t be angry, and can’t fail is just setting them up to fall into toxic masculinity. This might just be me talking about the culture I was raised in but those things aren’t necessarily a bad thing, and erasing what a “man” has been for generations isn’t going to win you any extra fans.
Sorry, I think maybe my point was misunderstood. Trust me, I’m in full agreement with you: Like the comment I was responding to was saying, trying to simply frame “positive” masculinity in terms of feminine traits doesn’t seem like a good idea. There needs to be a positive reference for actually masculine role models and ideals.
Like, literally everything you said is something I totally agree with.
My concern is that, specifically, initiatives which idealize working-class providers and fail to recognize the way automation and computerization have significantly flattened the jobs market (especially well-paying, working-class jobs), are intrinsically doomed because we don’t have an economy which widely supports men acting as supporters for a family. If we idealize a working provider but simultaneously leave things in a state where a man can’t provide for his family, what I fear we’re actually left with is swaths of men feeling unfulfilled and angry at those in charge for bringing them to this point.
Thanks, I’m glad you liked it!
I kinda agree on your points. I feel that working class heros could make a comeback if done well, though.
Hell ideally I’d like to see more historical stuff based on labor history, Blair Mountain was crazy and could totally be an action movie.
-
Thank you for taking the time to write that. That was very well thought out and I really can’t see much or anything to quibble about.
I am a gay man raised in a conservative culture and I really know quite a lot of men in their 30s and 40s who are straight and accepting of me, but still deeply deeply troubled and confused about what it means to be a man. They struggle to identify and articulate their emotions quite a lot.
The fact that those in same-sex relationships have to invent their own ways of dividing the work in a partnership without reference to pre-defined gender roles makes their insight incredibly useful to the world at large. A lot of the struggles that men experience are due to rigid gender roles that do not allow for healthy expression.
I get a little bit angry because it’s like we were expected to accept that provisional approval from the Supreme Court, which as we all know is a very fragile victory.
Why? Because frankly, I think gay men and lesbians have a lot to teach about relationships just by existing visibly. Transgender people do too, but they do not yet enjoy the patchy and tentative acceptance that same sex relationships between cis people have achieved in the large parts of the USA. Their struggle is very intense right now and the LGBQs can help by getting loud again.
Why did we give up on the fight so early? The struggle for existence is not quite as dire for gay and lesbian people as it used to be, but it is still quite a struggle as nothing is assured. But it is not just for our benefit that we must be visible. Frankly, our experience gives us a great deal of wisdom and insight that our society, and men especially, desperately need.
l feel that the acceptance of LGBT people has actually had a beneficial effect on cishet men in ways most people aren’t aware of.
Dating is a good example. Traditionally the guy asks the girl out and pays for everything. This system sucks. It means men feel desperate and have to prove their worth (financial and otherwise) feeling lonely and worthless and women are stuck with the constant stream of guys trying to hit on them, dealing with harassment and worse.
But with more acceptance of homosexual relationships, that traditional method of dating doesn’t apply. The old “but who’s the guy” confusion goes away, and people as a whole realize that it’s stupid. If you see a post about a woman insisting a guy pays for everything or a guy insisting on ordering for his date they seem old fashioned and weirdly demanding. Most people wouldn’t bat an eye about a girl asking a guy out on a date now, and I’ll bet there’s some old newspaper headlines about some lady doing that in the past.
By your nature you’re helping to break down these dysfunctional systems and it’s actually helping people, so thanks a lot for that!
You hit the nail on the head AND provided clear action items. Excellent post.
I do think that it would be difficult to rebrand “feminism” and “patriarchy” because the terms are inherently gendered and are sometimes still being used for gendered purposes. We should definitely find new terms and be more accurate about the egalitarian movement being a new movement, or a rebrand of the more general parts of feminism, rather than trying to reuse the old movement’s terms when it doesn’t make sense.
I get that this is upvoted a lot due to being constructive but it also reflects a lot of Republican media tropes about the left that aren’t really true - and that’s why trying to “fix” these things won’t work - because it misses the real problem.
Examples: No significant figure on the left is saying “men are rapists”, or telling men to be more like women, etc. Reducing suicide, safer workplaces, and reducing excessive prison sentences are all priorities for the left and not for the right.
I think the real problem is quite simple: Republicans have invested heavily in portraying themselves as the “masculine party”, and in driving the narratives I’ve mentioned. And because Republican leaders like the Murdochs and Elon tend to be men, they’re best at driving those narratives.
Which goes to the real underlying problem with the left as a whole - no ability to drive or counter a media narrative. The right has Fox news and Elon’s control over Twitter, which they can and do regularly use to create whatever narrative they want. Notice how for example they just made white south African farmer killings a topic all of a sudden. The left has a bunch of corporate media whose top priority is selling truck ads. Sure, maybe the reporters themselves are left leaning, but they have no top down guidance as to what narratives to build.
And until the left creates some sort of media capability to create and control narratives, the right will always have a leg up. And because of that, none of the well intentioned ideas here will actually work. If the left tries to appeal to men, the right will decide how those appeals will be interpreted.
I agree with you for the most part, but there is a thread you missed.
While there might not be a significant leftist media personality which says misandrist things, there are a lot of smaller people who do. There’s an air of “men are not welcome here, specifically cishet men” in lefty spaces. And people who try to speak out against it tend to be ousted. (Case study Erin Pizzey) There wouldn’t be a demand for “male tears” mugs out there if there wasn’t a demand for them.
Whether you think this behavior is acceptable or not, it doesn’t make the left seem appealing to young men, especially because it’s not called out by people.
But yeah, the top down media? A huge machine that’s a problem. The left will have a hard time replicating it, especially because when you live in hyper capitalism, it’s not really in the benefit of capitalists to try to fix it.
All these things already exist and maybe just need more exposure.
Most things already exist. What we need is for this to become the dominant understanding/goals of the left.
This is a great solution but it has two big problems that make it functionally impossible.
- To the left there is no non-toxic or positive masculinity.
- Feminism doesn’t actually support men, it’s a reluctant talking point. It only helps men if it happens to coincide with benefiting women.
Depends on what part of the left you’re talking about, but yeah, these are things which have to change in order for it to work well.
You can’t help men and hang on to feminism. Feminism is inherently anti-male.
Wrong. Feminism is anti-patriarchy, for everyone. Educate yourself, read a little.
Being anti-patriarchy is an inherently anti-male stance. A feminist walks up to a man and says “We’re trying to erode your influence on society, isn’t that great?” Yeah, and what the natives need is Christianity.
They’ll try to lie and market “The Patriarchy” as whatever they think they can get away with at the moment with the audience they’ve cornered, pretend like defeating “The Patriarchy” should be the goal of whoever they’re talking to as well. It shouldn’t.
Feminism started out as things like the suffragettes, wanting the right to vote in elections. Fair enough. “We want to be equal to men!” Uh huh…so here in 2025 what right or privilege do I enjoy under the law that a woman doesn’t?
I will also assert this: No feminist will be caught dead genuinely helping a man. A feminist is more likely to burn down a men’s shelter than build one.
God damn, what a load of incel bullshit you’re spewing. You’re exactly the problem and the reason why women would rather spend time with a bear than another self-absorbed manlet.
Patriarchy affects everyone badly, not just women. But I won’t be wasting time, you can learn about everything if you just put in a little effort. You seem to be choosing egoistical ignorance.
see?
Right, spewing bullshit and then framing resistance as confirmation of your ficticious points - classic playbook. Go and touch grass for once ;)
Citation needed
Feminism started as a way to fight for the rights of women. That’s not anti-male, but it’s also not “for everyone”.
Of course the focus is on women and generally LGBTQ+ people, as they are oppressed groups.
In its wider sense though, especially with the focus on intersectionality, it is for a fairer and juster world for everyone as the systems of oppression affect us all in various capacities.
I don’t know if I would categorize that as feminism though. Egalitarianism maybe? “Social justice” in the non-derogatory sense?
Feminism is just a collective name for various ideologies with the aim of social justice for all genders/sexes. Within you will find many different movements with various qualities. In general, it’s about creating societal/governmental systems that afford the same quality of life and opportunities for everyone, regardless of gender, race or sexuality.
You could see it as a subcategory of egalitarianism, which in general has the goal of social justice.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism
In the end, of course not every movement is perfect, people are fallible after all. But that doesn’t only concern feminists even if they are one of the main targets of the manufactured right-wing culture war. And furthermore, some people going too far/not being nuanced enough/not going far enough is not a reason to disregard the movement and its wider aims in a fight for a better world for all.
I’m not disregarding the movement; I’m saying the definition is trying to be too many things at once. If the narrow definition (traditional feminism for women’s rights and needs) and the wide definition (general gender issues) are too far apart, they begin to disagree. People both inside and outside of the movement are using the term in the narrower definition, and it doesn’t make sense IMO to continue to try to force the wider one when we could just pick a term that’s more accurate and go with that.
As an example of how this difference in definitions could be an issue, let’s say that I’m a man and I want to fight for some particular men’s rights issue. I would not feel comfortable taking my sign about trial verdict imbalance or male suicide rates to a feminist rally, because it only fits the broader definition. Anyone there who is fighting for feminism in the narrower definition would not appreciate me and my cause cause in what they perceive as a space to fight for women’s issues only. But in the broader definition, that sign would be fine, and others would welcome me. The people using either definition aren’t wrong, but the uncertainty created by having two valid definitions creates an atmosphere where it is more comfortable to fight for women’s rights than men’s rights.
Therefore, I think it would be smart to be able to specify, using the movement’s name, if an event is about women’s rights or gender equality in general. It can’t be both ways; to me, the inevitable result of the uncertain definition-- a gender equality movement where it is more accepted to fight for the rights of one gender-- is clearly worse than the alternative scenario where the terms are more clear.
I don’t think that’s inherently true for all feminism, though there’s definitely been some bad actors. Actresses.
-
The reality of this all is rather complex but I think the greatest issue is fundamentally the empathy gap. Men’s issues are not recognized as issues, they’re just dismissed out of hand. I’m talking about the easy things like the sentencing and education gaps.
We need to start the discourse that these are very real problems that are worth addressing.
Another problem I personally run into is how it’s acceptable to discriminate against men, “kill all men” is acceptable but “kill all race” isn’t. Neither should be and we don’t recognize it as a problem, instead defaulting to arguments that are considered horrendous in another context.
Every time I have heard someone say “kill all men” I have immediately dismissed everything else they are saying because their logic is just as rotten as other racists/sexists
How did you dismiss all the leftists in one fell swoop?
If you’re spouting off “kill all men” nonsense you’re not a leftist you’re just a propaganda recycler
So 98% of Lemmy then
Thanks for confirming
Wow you restated your point and pretended it’s what I said. Very clever, you get 5 points, nobody’s ever done that before
If 98% of Lemmy wants to kill all men, that’s a pretty shit state of affairs.
If they wanted to address the education gap, wouldn’t they? Why would they want to when trades provide more money, no lost income for 4-5 years, or a crippling debt? Women are at a disadvantage there. I mean, I definitely don’t want to minimize overlooked hardships, but…
You’re paying with your body, the work can be very dangerous, and it takes a while to ramp up to decent pay. On top of that the pay isn’t always going to be better than a degree (iirc research has concluded that lifetime earnings for trades are behind degrees), ignoring countries with sensible tertiary education options.
Trades are not equivalent. And education is still a significant indicator of political alignment.
Honestly, this is a great example of the empathy gap.
What research? There are lots of folks with crippling debts. I know tons of people who will never be rid of their’s. As an engineer, I have never known job security. Who wamts to worry about losing their job every day? But I notice plenty of guys making a lot more than me since trades have a serious shortage of workers. Electricians around here charge whatever they want because there is not enough of them. Hospitals around here are bought up by one entity, so nurses can’t quit and make more money elsewhere. Teachers are quitting in droves such that it’s become a national crisis. But then there are plumbers making 6 figures.
This comment reminds me of a 4chan post, where the poster talks about understanding the difference between anecdotes and statistics, and goes on to say that anyone who responds to a statistic with an anecdote they think disproves it isn’t very intelligent.
You don’t want to be dumber than a 4channer, do you?
I’m definitely below average. But I’m not sure education (or college at least) is the best direction to go at this time. It costs too much, and then people still don’t make much sometimes. Then there is job security. A mechanic will have a job for the foreseeable future. Coders and office workers are so far beyond fucked that I would not recommend someone pursue a career in an office right now.
Start by no longer telling men who have done nothing wrong they are responsible for the misdeeds of others. It breeds resentment and closes people to anything else you have to say.
This comes up a lot, and I really don’t know where it comes from. Who is telling you that you’re responsible for the misdeeds of others? Seriously, point that out, because I’m in my mid forties, I’m a white cishet American man, and I’ve never felt like I was being blamed for the sins of people who look and fuck like me. Really, it just sounds like a conservative strawman talking point, because nobody does this.
Literally the talk about how privileged men are is that
Okay, but that men are privileged is a fact. Do all men do well because of that? No. But we need to work with the facts, so we can better the system for everyone.
I’m not convinced that’s the case actually. We’re better off in some ways, definitely worse off in others.
Bullshit. I am privileged in many ways. It isn’t an insult to acknowledge that I don’t and haven’t faced the same challenges as other people. I can recognize that society hasn’t been fair to others without ignoring the obstacles and challenges I’ve faced.
Are you saying we’re not privileged?
Edit: I’ve been thinking about your comment, and I wonder if you don’t understand what privilege is.
Imagine you’re at a restaurant. You sit, you’re eating your meal, and someone at the next table asks to borrow the salt. You have salt on your table, and for whatever reason, they don’t have salt on their table.
So you stand up and shout “No! It’s not my fault the restaurant doesn’t provide salt to every table! It’s not my responsibility to make sure everyone has access to salt! I don’t owe this table or any table any other table my salt that I am owed. The salt is on my table because I earned it. And besides, I have no pepper and my steak was overcooked and my chair is wobbly. Fuck you for even suggesting I share my salt.”
None of that bullshit is relevant. You have the salt and someone is asking you to share because you can. They aren’t blaming you for the lack of salt. They aren’t saying you’re responsible to make sure everyone has salt. They aren’t saying that, because you have salt, you don’t have other needs or problems, or that you aren’t entitled to use the salt while you have it. The privilege is that you have access to salt while others don’t. You don’t always need it, so it costs you nothing to share. Having it won’t solve all of your problems, and sharing it should not cause you significant problems. And someone pointing out that the whole restaurant should have salt on each table is not a personal attack on you.
You’re not the asshole until you refuse to pass the salt.
I don’t think this is accurate. Male privilege is not the same issue as the whole “all men do X” vs “not all men” thing
Yapping on about the patriarchy, white privilege, male privilege etc is one example.
Are you saying those things don’t exist? I’m a white male, and I can acknowledge the privileges I have experienced without feeling responsibility for the injustice.
Rich old dudes fuck every everyone over…
21 years old kid gets the blame…
US “liberals” are a useful tools of the regime who are too smug to figure out that they are part of the problem
They have become the coastal educated elite through the years and it’s hard for them to accept it doesn’t resonate with the wider population
Crush patriarchy. That’s the system that’s failed these men after all. It wasn’t progressive values that promised them women to dispose of. It wasn’t feminism that promised them easy success and automatic status.
It’s the promise of patriarchy that has “been stolen from us”. And it’s the restoration of patriarchy these men are clamoring for. Men want their privilege back and the Left can accommodate them for the low low price of jettisoning feminist values from the movement.
This is really the most Democrat bullshit ever. Left politics is getting more support than ever, but we’re going to get obsessed with pleasing the groups that hate and oppose us instead of championing the issues of those who support us.
Maybe like, one day you are gonna need the social safety net, even if you’re a very strong cis het guy.
One you’re gonna be old. One day you’re gonna be fired without notice when your car breaks down. One day your girlfriend might have a surprise pregnancy you can’t deal with.
Just brainstorming but I would start with saying, sure this doesn’t benefit you right now, cause you got the luck of the draw, but one day we will all need help
