I’ve got 2 kids in primary school. We teach them to be kind and caring, that cheaters never win. That bullies are bullies because they are not happy.
However a study came out that compared bullies and non bullies. Bullies kids are more likely to be successful financially and socially based on studies. I was sad for humanity when o found out.
It makes sense, in the same way that it makes sense that CEO’s are more likely to be sociopaths. Human brains are made for small societies. When it’s a larger society, negative traits can be helpful to get ahead. It’s likely part of the reason we experience wars and famine and billionaires.
I love you put billionaires next to other disasters
In many ways billionaires are worse than the other disasters listed.
Mostly because people aspire to be billionaires. Society would be much better off if people aspired to be hurricanes.
Thank you, I have a new goal in life.
The human brain really seems to be built for small communities. Once the village you live in is bigger than about 150 people, all sorts of weird things begin to happen. Some people no longer feel like they’re a part of the same group as everyone else. They begin to feel like they can get away with anything, maybe even steal something, or hurt other people. Being greedy doesn’t feel wrong any more, altruism feels like a weakness etc.
I’ve been thinking about these things, and I’ve come to the conclusion that the world we live in is not optimized for the human mind or physiology. We’ve specifically designed a world that is bad for us in a number of ways.
That is unless the bully messes with the wrong person and gets the shit beaten out of them.
And then they become adults and find different ways to mess with people, hire bodyguards, expensive lawyers, group up with other corrupt people who find joy in people suffering, shit in their diapers under their suit, etc.
End them all.
successful financially and socially
Going around with a machete makes you more successful predator. Being successful financially doesn’t mean shit and neither does having followers on social media.
Believe it or not, social interaction isn’t limited to social media. Or so I’ve been told…
Lies and manipulation do not lead to good social interactions.
Or the other option: all kids are equally capable of being dicks to each other. It just depends who has social capital. Kids who have the traits necessary to gain social capital - intelligence, athleticism, attractiveness, confidence, etc - end up on top of the social hierarchy in school and also end up going farther in life.
Theoretically, all people are capable of being president, but I ky very few get there, irrespective of ability.
You’re right about their attributes being a guide. I reckon it’s down to the confidence, more than anything. Bullys are typically seen as acting out due to their own insecurity. However, the skills learned in putting themselves above others likely helps to achieve personal goals. It’s likely similar for attractive people and confidence. Confidence is a drug that affects other people.
I’d also want to see the same methodology when assessing being happy, have many close friends you can trust etc.
And also how they assessed “being a bully”
I was curious about the studies. The only thing I came across about outcomes was this BMJ review that says:
Bullies were more likely to have trouble keeping a job and honouring financial obligations. They were more likely to be unemployed.
Maybe, but it also means that you’ll be alone for eternity and will never have true friends or camaraderie, and that by itself will consume you.
There is only so many people you can do that to before everyone else catches on and shuns you. All the evil people in the world don’t have any friends and are subject to betrayals and threats in their lives constantly. To me, that’s not a bearable existence. Sure, you got power, but you’re miserable and afraid all the time. Was that really worth it?
That doesn’t seem to bother the kind of people being described
Does Muskrat seem like a happy and balanced individual to you? What about Coked up Bezos or AI Zuckerberg?
Zuckbot seems legitimately happy now after being less involved with the company and pursuing personal goals
you’ll be alone for eternity and will never have true friends or camaraderie, and that by itself will consume you.
I AM a morally decent person who makes efforts to do the right thing. And that last part is STILL true!
I just don’t like most people.
Most people are selfish and amoral. When people like that encounter a decent person, they will do what they can to silence them so they aren’t given the chance to expose corruption.
You probably don’t like most people because most people are walking sacks of shit who would throw you under the bus if it means benefiting themselves
You’d be wrong. I’m sorry that you feel this way about humanity, but that is simply not true. And believing that won’t make you a “smart” person. It makes you’re no better than those people, and it also makes you feel worse.
It might be satisfying in the moment to hate humanity, but that satisfaction is fleeting and addicting. Being a misanthrope just brings the worst version of yourself out.
Seems condescending to assume I think that belief makes me “smart”. I’m speaking on my experience, that’s the only experience I have. I don’t appreciate you trying to make me out as some kind of angsty teen rebel.
Well, your experience isn’t universal. Most people aren’t like you described.
Maybe you need a change of environment.
Let me put it this way. If your family was 1 of 2 surviving families on earth for whatever reason and all the resources have run out. You’re stuck in an underground bunker and unfortunately your only option for survival is cannibalism (this is a common thought exercise in philosophy) are you more willing to eat your family? Or the other?
And what about towards the end, when it’s just you and one other person. Do you override your survival instinct and offer yourself up, or do you start reasoning to yourself that this is a necessary evil?
I want the worst version of myself out. I recently made two shitty co-workers crap themselves.
Being bad towards shitty people is a different beast from being bad towards everyone because you assume the worst out of everyone.
Righteous outrage is addicting, but it’s also extremely fucking draining. I left reddit because I’d constantly rage bait myself every day and it was destroying my relationships.
Read your profile, our stories are nearly the same!
Wow. You actually get me.
shifty eyes
I still don’t trust you…
I want nothing from you other than your social security, bank cards and pins, credit card information, medical information, your first born, your shoe size, favorite color and why, as well as your third born
via SMBC:
There are plenty of corrupt people who are never caught, or even caught and let go with little to no consequences due to their influence and money. As much as I want to live in a world where karma exists and assholes get what they deserve, that is unfortunately not the reality we live in.
Just because we don’t see it or it doesn’t look like we think it should doesn’t mean it’s not real. Imagine being shallow and wanting to marry for how it looks on the outside. Imagine 20 -30 years later realizing you’re stuck in a companionless relationship, but refusing to end it because it makes sense on paper to keep it intact.
I believe in consequences of your actions of course, but I don’t believe there is some kind of cosmic scale balancing right and wrong. Maybe there is but that’s quite an assumption to make. Lots of old rich men and women end up in that cycle of trading partners in like leased vehicles. Some people don’t care so much for companionship as much as they care about vanity. Sad, yes, but who am I to dictate how some people find happiness.
Maybe they are happy. The people I’ve met living that way seem miserable. That’s really all karma is, cause and effect. We either learn or don’t. I really believe that the kingdoms of heaven (and hell) are inside us. That doesn’t necessarily equate to physical reality, eg, every need met can still leave people miserable, people who seemingly struggle manage to find peace, if not happiness, others who match their physical reality, often we slide among points on the spectrum of being.
I don’t see it as perfectly balanced or absolute equilibrium. I see it as more of a spiral hourglass that flips like the magnetic poles. But that’s a whole other discussion and I need to develop that concept, as I just surprised myself with it. That’s a sleepy thought.
I do find that a lot of “bully” type people seem miserable, angry, combatative. That’s likely what drives their lack of empathy though, they don’t care about hurting others because they think in some roundabout way that if everyone is upset then it’s fair. There are a lot of reasons why some people justify the way they live and a lot of them will never willingly change.
Yes karma is cause and effect but a lot of times the effect won’t happen without human intervention to force it into reality. I would describe that more as social structure or framework. Tomato potato
Outside pressures are often the driving forces of evolution, and affect everything engaged in a particular process. Dawkins talked about this, iirc.
Anyway, observing a thing changes it. There will always be latent effects. Maybe it’s not about individual learning, but collective learning, with a nod to Dawkins.
It would be great to think one day society would reward good people more often but we are still crawling to that goal
Yeah it really depends on what you consider success. For a lot of people, money & power isn’t necessarily the marker for success, and finding meaning and joy in life is more important. And I know that sounds like capitalist “money doesn’t buy you happiness” bs, but striving towards money and power consistently is the most capitalist thing you can do.
I think people who are able to attain a good amount of money to survive and still maintain their morals and find joy, that’s success.
You can be selective with this power; works well for a lot of folks. Have a smallish in group where you’re always upstanding, enjoy all the benefits that our tribal brain craves, and also enjoy the material benefits.
Hey, you just described church!
It’s because we live in a system with perverse incentives. It’s practically designed by psychopaths, for psychopaths. Still, we only get one life, don’t spend it going against your better nature.
Sure but it’s lonely at the top. If you rise to the top by backstabbing people, you’ll end up exactly how some people right now are, and you keep trying to accumulate more and be great or whatever messing up everything else and being hated.
While a simple life with your loved ones will give you satisfaction. And satisfaction is the key to happiness. Rather satisfaction is the ultimate happiness.
It depends where you want to go. Knowledge is always bigger than power, power gives money but knowledge gives depression and suicide thoughts. The fast escape path is obvious.
Yes and i would choose to have morals anyway
I so wish that I could grift the fuck out of the goddamn Nazis and get rich off of their idiocy but I would feel icky with dirty money.
You could do it and then give me the money
Go to work for ICE, and be the worst worker in the history of America. Then you earned your money gumming up the works of an evil organization, and you can feel good about taking their money to hurt them.
I would be alright with ICE getting fake armor plates, defective bullets, and boots with thin soles.
Eh, I bet the pay is shit
You’ll still be a shit person, likely with no meaningful friendships. That’s gotta factor into the equation somehow.
People with low empathy don’t see people as companions, but more as tools to benefit themselves. So they don’t really care as long as they have enough money and pawns to take care of themselves.
I’m a domestic abuse outreach worker and I see it a lot in clients. Abusers are always selfish and generally manipulative and liars. They have little or no empathy for their partner and rarely care how the partner feels. They’re often highly successful in their field, because they have such great manipulation skills.
I imagine your job is as draining as it is fulfilling
Thanks mate, you certainly have to accept the losses. I look at soft outcomes though, so making the children feel heard and like they matter. It gets me through.
You couldn’t be thanked enough for your work
I really, truly appreciate it Keanu thanks so much ❤️
Reducing other people to mere tools is a symptom of psychopathy rather than simply low empathy. Yes, psychopaths are within the set of people with low empathy, however, shouldn’t be confused with the set itself. It’s also specifically a lack of affective (warm) empathy that’s more of the problem than a lack of empathy in general, as some psychopaths do have cognitive (cold) empathy, and so do understand others (albeit to a limited extent), however, just use it to be more exploitive rather than less. This is by contrast with autistic people who often struggle with cognitive (cold) empathy, however, not with affective (warm) empathy, i.e. they don’t know how they’ve hurt people but they know they’ve hurt people and try to avoid doing so.
Been a while since psych and I’m sure some terms I use are outdated now but the way it was explained to me was that sociopaths feel some guilt and remorse but do it anyways whereas psychopaths don’t feel any remorse at all. I think symptoms of both have been melded into ASPD in general now but the logic applies. If someone is capable of lying and manipulating without remorse (my original statement) then it would be a very low chance that they see others as equals
There is no such thing as a sociopath clinically speaking. There are primary and secondary psychopaths though, the former lacking empathy entirely and the latter having access to some empathy. They are both alloplastic (irresponsible for their actions and their consequences) and thus neither can feel guilt as guilt is associated with having responsibility. Psychopaths tend to have a generalised anxiety at their core, which they compensate for with defiance (to convince themselves and others of their power as a means to deal with the anxiety). This creates a backlash against them, which because they’re irresponsible, creates frustration, something they can’t manage well, and so direct the frustration outwards in the form of aggression.
Anxiety and shame are the emotions associated with negative (or potential) consequences while being powerless. Psychopaths are more anxious because they have an internal locus of control, whereas narcissists are more shameful because they don’t. In both cases, they seek control, albeit for different reasons.
EDIT: Psychopaths see other people as pets at best, and tools at worst. As you say, they do not perceive you as equals.
That’s more useful than you know for someone I’m currently dealing with. I consider myself patient but everyone has their limits, how do you help someone who is defiant, seek control, and clearly anxious without letting them tear your mood apart?
I know I’m supposed to understand they are acting out of confused defense but it’s truly difficult to be the caregiver to someone who is essentially throwing an illogical temper tantrum nearly 24/7?
In my experience, you try to have as little to do with them as possible. Do you have some legal obligation to be their caregiver?
I think most people will recommend setting boundaries and sticking to them, however, they are compelled to cross any lines you set.
You kind of end up setting sacrificial boundaries that they can cross, or boundaries with a buffer zone so they can cross it a little bit without going too far.
Like, if the speed limit is 50 km/h, they’re going to go 55 km/h, and that’s still a safe speed so you’re happy and they’re happy. If they go 100 km/h, well, that’s genuinely unsafe and you’re forced to intervene.
Moral obligation. Yes I am in that constant cycle of setting boundaries, having them crossed, and forgiving them because they have noone else to care for them. I don’t see giving up as an option on the matter but I know I’m sacrificing my mental health for them.
Yeah, that’s what the rest of us try to convince ourself so that we can cope with it. That or the idea that these people must sleep very poorly thinking about what they’ve done, while we’re actually the ones who have poor sleep thinking about what they’ve done and feeling powerless.
It may seem this way at times, however, it really depends on the system you’re participating in.
Have a play around with: The evolution of trust - https://ncase.me/trust/
That was amazing and highly informative!
A system designed by psychopaths benefits psychopaths? No way…
I’ve known this for a long time but I continue to do my best to operate honorably. I may never be rich or powerful, but I sleep very well at night.
I still don’t sleep well, knowing the state of the world
Yea. Trying to be correct and do things in a respectful and good way makes me more and more bitter, resentful and judgemental.
Soon that in itself will corrupt me.
I have to manipulate and lie to myself that things will get better
Yay capitalism! Perfect reasoning not to feel bad lying on a resume.
If they can lie about the company and position, I can lie about my experience and fit.
I’m starting to think of writing down the specific things job recruiters tell me, and bringing it to the interview. The last recruiter that reached out (and succeeded in hiring me) told me things that didn’t end up being true. When I got hired and was told contradictory information, the company said, “Oh, that is still true, but this particular case is an exception. We can get you a different case where that is true,” and then they didn’t get back to me for weeks. In that time, I’d applied, interviewed, and accepted a job elsewhere. Fuck lying employers.
This is only true in a world that is mostly full of people with morals. A society built on lying and manipulation inevitably collapses - look at what is happening to the United States. They elected an amoral lying manipulator and in just six months their society is unraveling. They just passed a law that took money away from hungry children and sick people so that their psychopathic leader can better persecute his enemies: that is, anyone who opposes him. ICE just became the best-funded “law” enforcement agency ever created. It is obvious to everyone except a handful of naive idiots that ICE will be used against US citizens to consolidate MAGA’s power in an attempt to create a permanent regime. These states always collapse sooner or later, though, because morality is the foundation of law. No one is going to invest in a country where their assets can be seized and they can be imprisoned on the caprice of a senile madman. You can’t have trade without trust - all that is left in places like the US are predators and prey.
This unraveling has been going on a lot longer than just six months. It’s been accelerating hard since the Patriot Act after 9/11. And even before that, Republicans had been lying about their support of free markets for generations.
Sure it has. It’s been going on since the 70s and CEOs making 300 percent of the workforce. It is exactly the same as nobles and their taxes of the poor in almost every Empire’s history. And it always leads to a purge that changes things. We could be on the cusp of a Roman takeover. We could be on the cusp of a total collapse. Hard to say which way it’s going.
Whatever it is, this will not last forever.
I wish this wasn’t true, but it’s tragic that it is.
Yup and add intelligence to the list as well. Smart means nothing if you can’t back it up with being an amoral pile of shit that takes advantage of people every opportunity you get.
If you are smart, you can afford the luxury of not being a complete piece of shit if you get into the right career.
I feel like that has got to be pretty difficult unless you include jobs where you are personally isolated from and ignorant of the harmful things the company you contribute to is doing
I mean every company probably has some bad effect on the world, but there’s also benefit. You have to weight the benefits vs the harm. I don’t feel like I have to be personally evil in my job or that it’s a net negative on society. I think things are better in the world because of my work. Not all things, but better on balance.
Your other comments in this thread seem to contradict that a little, at least the idea that these harms or benefits would be visible enough to you to evaluate, since you claim to have switched positions when they started becoming more visible and something you would have had to engage with directly. For software in particular, you empower your users to do whatever they happen to choose to do with it.
Which isn’t to say you’re doing the wrong thing. I just see the economy as a whole as an inherently cannibalistic system we have little choice but to be a contributing part of one way or another, with the main form of meaningful available agency being to minimize involvement rather than choosing how to be involved.
The economy as it is both provides and causes problems, but without the advanced economy we have today the majority of the world’s people would starve to death. And yes, technology can be used to bad ends, but I’ve seen a lot of applications of ours and mostly it’s just mundane “getting the job done” stuff that helps everyday people keep functioning.
Yes, there are evil people in my organization, but I feel like I’ve stood up for my principles where it counted. Yes I’ve been demoted for that, and I was much happier afterwards. Someday it may cost me my job, but I will keep losing jobs until I find one where I can be myself.
All things in life are a balance of good and bad, you just have to evaluate whether you are more on the good side or bad side. There are a lot of jobs out there that are just helping people do the stuff they need to get done, generally good. Yes some evil capitalist takes most of the profit and hoards it for their evil purposes, but for me it’s enough to know that I provided things needed by others and helped them to make it through their lives in some small way.
What’s the “right career”?
For me it was enterprise software
I work in that myself, which allows me to be a step or two removed from being a complete piece of shit, but still pretty close to the shitscape.
Also, in that field, being an asshole without empathy gets you further up the org chart than being smart or good at your job, so my point stands.
Hence why I’ve been at the bottom of the org chart most of my 30 year career. I moved up one rung once, but after I refused to do some shitty things to people, I ended up moving back down ;-). No regrets.
It might mean money and success.
I know plenty of moral smart people who are doing very well in life.
