…you didn’t say fascist…
Maybe you’re not ready to hear this: Both sides are not the same.
I see your point, however, the Democratic party is not fascist. It does provide a clear difference from the GOP. Wether we like it or not, USA is a two party system. We need to be practical here, not ideological, or we just go fascist forever.
There’s no way to win political power in the United States without the Democratic Party or the Republican Party.
Socialists and progressives will always have an easier time infiltrating the neoliberal Democratic Party over the fascist Republican Party.
The longer the fascists are in power the harder it will be remove them from power because they will change the rules to maintain power.
The optimal strategy remains to vote for neoliberals when the alternative is fascists because that is how to create time for socialists and progressives to primary neoliberals in the Democratic Party and win general elections.
This meme is a continuation of the accelerationism we saw during the 2024 election. It supports the fascist cause by attempting to sabotage leftist’s best strategy and thus is pro-fascist. The user is prone to self-sabotage as they publicly admitted to not voting for Harris in 2024.
If a fascist drinks at your bar and you don’t throw them out it’s a fascist bar. If a fascist meme ends up in your community and you don’t throw it your a fascist community.
I am reporting this meme. And you all should too. I’m sick of self-described leftists backstabing me and every other minority group they pretend to care about because they’re mad about the 2016 election. I’m a trans, atheist, Jew. I’m close enough to the death camps for my liking thanks. You don’t have to like the Democrats, I don’t, but we do need to vote for them.
I refuse to go quietly. I refuse to tolerate memes that shrug at my right to exist and throw fuel to the fire in the hopes that the fascists kill everyone faster. That’s not a real political position. It’s black pilled bullshit and it can fuck off.
Hope that helps people stop tolerating this bullshit going forward.
Roosevelt did great things for Americans while still being capitalist. The needle can be moved left without violent revolution.
“Both sides bad” is weak sauce.
Quick reminder that there were other things going on in the 20s and 30s. You know, the height of socialism in the West, a strong labor movement willing to burn down factories, stuff like that. The New Deal didn’t come because leftists played nice.
So there ARE conditions by which reform can occur, neat.
Yes, but you have to be willing to crack bourgeoisie skulls.
The coal wars threatening to kick off a second civil war, y’know small things.
A socialist movement independent from either of the major parties too!
Blue Morpho apparently never learned about the Battle of Blair Mountain or the Railway Strikes.
I feel like Western labour just doesn’t have any leverage anymore. The rich simply do not need us. They have outsourced enough labour that they really don’t care if we strike en masse. Like, shut down which factories? They’re all overseas.
That’s what they want you to think. Their own lives depend on Western labor. That’s who runs the ports, the railways, the warehouses, etc. Also a lot of high-tech stuff is still in the West.
In addition to the points raised by some of the other comments I’d remind you of one uncomfortable truth. The business plot was attempted fascist takeover of America. That was thankfully put down because remarkably there was one honorable ex-marine they tried to involve the plot. That’s Smedley Butler. In the wake of that that attempted fascist coup basically nobody was punished. In large part because Roosevelt told them as long as they kept their mouth shut and didn’t block the New Deal he wouldn’t go after them. That’s basically the only reason it got through. Truncated as it was even then. Because most of the richest and most powerful people in the country we’re looking down the barrel of a gun otherwise.
Prescott Bush and his cronies should have been hanged.
And Smedley Butler Day should be a national holiday.
If you had to go back almost a hundred years to find any kind of example, I’m just going to gesture broadly at the next hundred years and rest my case.
Have fun wasting your time doing this. If they only fucked over Burnie once I might agree with you.
Well, they will still try. They won’t give it up. But it’s not possible to win it against them, like the Tea Party won against less extreme establishment Republicans
No, the new deal only came to be after violent protests, and was largely a betrayal of labor groups because it gave a much watered down version of what was actually demanded, all while Roosevelt broke the strike he promised to support while campaigning. Read “Labor’s Giant Step Forward” by Art Preis if you want a more detailed accpunt
can it be done again without another series of protests and pain the current era of capitalism?
Yep.
All the keyboard warriors talking about revolution need to either pick up and gun and do it or get off their asses and help primary bad Dems to send a message and start the reformation process.
No one who made it out of high school should be saying “both sides” because it’s a profoundly stupid and unproductive thing to say. Did we have masked squads disappearing people before January? Did our allies all hate us? Were we threatening fucking Canada? Were we paying tariff taxes?
Both sides are varying degrees of the same ideology, give all the money to the economic elite so they bribe both parties into maintaining that policy above all other considerations.
One side shrugs and calls it free market forces(D) as you suffer under that policy goal, the other points and laughs at you and says you deserve it®. That is the extent of our “freedom” under American democracy.
One side appoints Justices that voted against Citizens United and one appoints Justices that voted for it. That’s a huge distinction.
Roosevelt was the least bad president and was ruling during a time where the US ended up on the right side of a conflict. He still did not abolish capitalism or the American empire, nor did he have any intentions to.
But that doesn’t make the democrats good, it doesn’t make one side better, it doesn’t make the US good.
it doesn’t make one side better
One side IS objectively better.
That’s proven by economic stats.
That’s proven by voting history.
That’s proven by criminal conviction history.
There is no debate which side is better if you’re even remotely interested in facts.
You take the side that is better and you reform it by primarying the reps that won’t play ball for their constituents., sending a clear message to the reps that remain. That is how democracy works in its most effective form.
With unintelligent comments like yours and all the discussions happening below meme threads, conflicts and violence is where we are heading to. I encourage you to learn more about the things you are talking about.
Both sides are functionally the same when it comes to the world. There’s barely a difference between domestic policy between the two American parties. One uses sweet nothing’s to try assuage your fears and the other uses Force and strongman techniques.
Yeah the FDR Reformation came directly from FDR and we pushed through at his behest. According to my understanding of these politics at a time if The president hadn’t been FDR we would not have gotten those Reformations. Besides they hardly matter nowadays when they’re practically entirely Stripped Away. The last surviving one is social security and they’re pretty gung-ho about getting rid of that too.
Both sides
Instant downvote. Lazy trash.
Couldn’t be bothered to read. Ad hominem attack. Excellent representation of the American voter.
People who type the words “both sides” and then post don’t deserve to have their comments read.
People who are unable to read are one of the reason the United States is in the toilet.
People who use fallacies so they don’t have to engage with the objective facts of an argument they’re not able to impeach are another reason the world is falling to facism
This is a right-wing troll talking point. Don’t listen to it.
Go to the Democratic primaries and move the party left. And then, no matter who gets the nomination, vote Dem in the general election. This is exactly what the nazis did to move the GOP to the right and it worked great for them, and it’s something we can emulate.
Yeah, not listening to this defeatist garbage. The Democratic party has been changed before. It will be changed again. The party is not defined by some monolithic ideology. We need massive electoral reform in the US to ensure elections are actually fair. First past the post is problematic. House and Senate functions are problematic. We need a solution to the two party problem, but until then, our vehicle is the Democratic party. Best to make it do what we want it to rather than just give up because “they’re corporatists”.
Yeah, not listening to this defeatist garbage.
Defeatism is thinking the only option you have is playing by the rules the bourgeoisie instated, not “stop believing in a corrupt party”
Unlike you, we believe in multiple options. We’re trying to move the Dems to the left AND pushing for electoral reform AND planning an armed communist revolution.
And you’re just whining
This is a right-wing troll talking point. Don’t listen to it. This is a far left anarchist talking point
Preach!
no matter who gets the nomination, vote Dem in the general election
Its never worked before, but lets just try that again.
The Democrats used to be the racist pro slavery party. Then it got captured and turned into Roosevelts New Deal Democrats, which were obviously to the left of the Republicans. Not perfect, but they really did a lot of good.
This can be repeated, but it takes a lot of work.
I think it can be ship of theseus’d, just replace all the key people in the party and keep the name.
FDR was a democrat, if it could go from that to what it is now, it can be turned back into a socialist party.
Parties can absolutely change with enough pressure.
I’ve been alive long enough to watch the Republican party almost completely change. Yeah, they were always stupid assholes. But they were not even close to THIS crazy and traitorous. Their base changed them. The liberal base can change the Democrat party.
The Democrat party is ESTABLISHED. No 3rd party is even remotely close to being established. It is not the time yet to vote for a 3rd party and won’t be until a 3rd party actually gets serious and starts winning smaller elections.
I think it can be ship of theseus’d, just replace all the key people in the party and keep the name.
At this point it’s easier to just nuke it
What does that look like in practice, and what BS are you going to make up to differentiate it from giving up?
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This exactly. It’s nonsense to say that the party can’t change because it has changed.
It may not be worth the effort to reform it, but claiming that it “can’t” be reformed is asinine. A political party is not some higher order being, timeless and unchanging, nor even one with a fundamental permanent set of core tenants that all else springs from. It’s a group of people with a bit of bureaucracy that influence and decide somewhat collectively on their shared goals. Of course that can change fundamentally.
In fact it has changed fundamentally in the not too distant past. Look at the Democratic party (and the Republican party) of the Jim Crow era compared to today. They essentially flipped to the other side of the political spectrum. It’s absolutely not easy to change a party fundamentally and not quick to do so, either. Old minds are not easily swayed with the times. The primary way to change party ideals is through new minds and perspectives joining the party and the old ones leaving it. Generational change is slow AF but it does definitely happen. Concerted effort for young people with new ideals to join the party is the best way to induce this change. Again though, that is a lot of effort and takes times. The bigger he ship, the harder to steer. There are alternatives, all of which also take a ton of effort, probably a lot more effort really, but might be faster if it works out.
Problem is this - Dems are not a political party, they’re a fundraising organization.
I know you’re just being reductive, but that’s a silly statement. They are objectively a political party. They also fundraise. They’re not mutually exclusive.
The point is they measure success not by winning elections but by fundraising. “Harris couldn’t have been wrong, she raised record amounts, it must be the the voters or something”
Most people use “can’t” for things that are impractical, not just strictly impossible. But yes, let’s argue about phrasing rather than the issue. That ought to fix everything.
Yup.
There are so many Americans that don’t grasp that this change can happen. Or understand the concept but outright refuse to have patience. And like you said, it’s A LOT less effort, a LOT less time, and WAY more possible to primary and change the Democrat party than to cross our fingers for a random 3rd party to start actually doing something and winning some elections and getting reps in the House and Senate.
I’ve been alive for a while. I watched conservative voters change the Republican party to the fascist traitor party it is today. You can absolutely change political parties.
I don’t know why we keep having to have this talk about why reformism doesn’t work. Rosa Luxembourg addressed this pretty well.
We aren’t likely to get Reformations, the problems with the Democratic party are baked directly in to the institution.
Anything offered as Reformation is a token to ensure that the masses don’t revolt at least until the Reformation can be clawrd back by the powers that be.
Want to watch the Democrat party change?
Start primarying left and right.
It’ll change.
We’ve watched conservative voters change the Republican party to the traitor party they are today in less than 2 decades. It’s completely possible.
The Democrat Elites thought of that which is why they use super delegates which ensure that a candidate cannot be too radical.
Not only that the situation surrounding both parties is entirely different. People saw Donald Trump initially as a harmless moron. People in the DNC see radicals and progressives as an enemy to be contained
We aren’t likely to get Reformations, the problems with the Democratic party are baked directly in to the institution.
What’s the difference between the Democratic party and the United States of America in this regard? If the Democrats can’t be reformed, why can the USA be reformed? If the USA can’t be reformed, then what’s the point of this discussion?
Well theoretical the DNC is not baked directly into the government and continues its stranglehold by trying to kill all 3rdparty prospects pretty aggressively.
If a group was able to pull it off and build a completely new political party it could change the fabric of the government the same way MAGA is now however this is not Reformation. Its a soft power Revolution similar to what happened with Adelle in Chile.
I mean functional what’s occurring with the Trump administration is a soft power revolution.
The point of this discussion is to encourage people to put down the DNC in favor of other organizations like local ones that actually benefit the community by helping the impoverished or to look at other organizations like the DSA or PSL or FSRO which at least help encourage people to learn anarchist or Marxist theory which is significantly better at predicting and helping people navigate the political landscape then the neoliberal theory that lead us here in the first place.
Well theoretical the DNC is not baked directly into the government and continues its stranglehold by trying to kill all 3rdparty prospects pretty aggressively.
No, it’s not aggressive at all in trying to kill 3rd parties. That’s because 3rd parties aren’t a threat to power in this country. It uses 3rd parties as an excuse for their losses, and uses that to go after the left (something it does do aggressively).
Its a soft power Revolution similar to what happened with Adelle in Chile.
Chile is a parliamentary system with proportional representation, not a first past the post winner takes all system. Totally different animal.
I mean functional what’s occurring with the Trump administration is a soft power revolution.
Yes, executed through an inside strategy of taking over the Republican party. Imagine that.
The point of this discussion is to encourage people to put down the DNC in favor of other organizations like local ones that actually benefit the community by helping the impoverished or to look at other organizations like the DSA or PSL or FSRO
If that were the point of this discussion, it would seem like that might have been something to mention before now.
Yep because allowing the DNC to blame third parties certainly doesn’t create animosity towards third parties nor does it push the illusion that voting anything other than democrat or republican is handing the country over to your opponent.
Somebody doesn’t know about the Socialist Revolution in Chile in the 70s… or the role the United States played in ending that.
Pretending that parliamentary systems aren’t first past the vote is something else. They just happen to have a system where coalitions have a little more power. Definitely hasn’t helped in France or the United Kingdom where the two major political parties continue to consolidate power.
Yes the Republican Party allowed themselves to be taken over since they believe anything for power which Trump is more than happy to oblige.
As I said before the Republican party did not take Trump seriously until it was too late and did not attempt to remove power from him. Where as the Democratic party actively stamps out Progressive politicians and policies.
Regardless of how other people feel I’m using this as an opportunity to talk about how the Democrats have failed us at every level politically and are now enabling the fascists take over of the United States and that it’s time to abandon the Democrats and find a new party and a new type of political organization. Which is why I suggest talking to the DSA Or the psl or the FSRO.
Anything these guys teach you will be light years ahead of any political Theory you learn from a Democrat.
The Republican party was a party of radical abolitionists and it was captured by the capitalists. The Democratic party can likewise be changed to something it is not currently.
You can’t convince me of what may be by talking about what is.
I gladly note, that maker of this propaganda meme is fuckin stupid xD
Okay, one still should vote for a Democrat president. Because why would you vote for a more hostile government? Unless of course you want everything go-to shit but you should lead with your intention.
Well the other option is reforming the Republican Party. That seems harder.
I think progressives could easily run in Republican primaries and just start harping on labor and unions since no one else in that party does and tons of Union members vote Republican. What the worst that could happen? Collusion of the national party against the most popular left leaning or presidential candidate in the US, oh wait, the DNC already did that.
If Zohran Mamdani gets elected and actually follows through with his campaign promises, this is factually incorrect. I am holding on to that last glimmer of hope.
actually follows through with his campaign promises
Don’t count on it. Not for any bad reason, just that things are harder to implement than campaign promises, whether it’s city council in the way or just practicality.
I’m just saying he can be a success without implementing all of his campaign ideas.
If he legitimately tries, that is enough for me.
I can almost guarantee you that both corporations and the right wing will try to stop or reverse anything he does. If he shows that the Republicans oppose these extremely popular initiatives, it might cause a massive swing of voters, who believed trump’s campaign promises, to shift over to the left.
https://gothamist.com/news/how-voters-in-trump-districts-helped-mamdani-win-the-democratic-primary
And you expect the party to simply follow suit and embrace his policies?
No, I expect liberal voters to get off their asses and keep primarying establishment Dems that aren’t serving their constituents so we can reform the Democrat party.
This post is talking about co-opting the D party. Which is exactly what Mamdani would be doing if he follows through.
This isn’t what would happen. Realistically all that will happen is the party ignoring him and continuing to pander to the right. The last time the democrats were progressive was under Roosevelt. Not much longer and that will be 100 years ago.
And that would be your opinion. Do you belive there is another path of action that can be taken that would result in better living standards for the majority of people in America?
You know Marx wrote several books about that. And he’s by far not the only person who has.
The first step in the right direction is delegitimising the state and its institutions. Protest, normalisation and strategic use of political violence. Disruption and sabotage of the economy as much as that’s possible for an individual or group. The building of mass movements, not necessarily political parties, with a concentrated vanguard leadership.
I am volunteering at my local DSA chapter to try to affect positve change in the direction of my views. So, what steps are you taking in the real world to make real change in the US?
It is great to have ideals, but if all you do is talk about how, “X is not possible and we actually need to do Y”, you discredit those who are actually putting in effort to make a change and discourage people from even trying.
I am actively engaging in a political party that seeks a departure from the US and NATO. It uses populist policies to polarize and at the same time weakens the far right by drawing from their ranks with said populist rhetoric and policies.
We are doing what we can, but to topple any government, conditions first have to worsen. As I’ve said before the best we can basically do is stoke the flames until the right conditions arise for real change.
My issue is not with people trying to act. It’s with people who act wrong either out of malice or just ignorance. That is what reform is. Capitalism has never been overthrown via reform and never will be now. Liberals are too brainwashed to realise that capitalism needs to be overthrown for any meaningful lasting change, so instead they act to feed it, thinking they can reform it into being good. Something which is not possible, as it goes against it’s structure and ideals.
I wish I could.
I’m expecting Hope and Change 2.0. Mamdani is almost certainly going to quickly be informed of how wealthy he and his kids can be and turn his back on New Yorkers if he gets elected, just like Obama.
ITT is some progressives who put more time, energy and anger into bullying other progressives not to vote for a genuinely progressive candidate, than they do into trying to sincerely convince Republican voters not to vote Republican.
There’s a logical fallacy at play in their minds where they think “Republican voters aren’t reasonable but progressives are, so I’ll spend my time trying to whip progressives into holding the Party line. Maybe cussing them out and accusing them of being complicit in the rise of fascism will help…”
Better not try then…
