What is the point of this meme? I feel like the only thing this can produce is people to not try to reform and improve the democratic party and take it over (like the tea party took over the republicans). Kind of like these “give up climate change it can’t be stopped” posts that just benefits the big fossil fuels companies
That’s the point, I’ve noticed a lot of the loudest, most active posters on Lemmy ultimately want one thing, which is progressives not to vote. Weird how that’s what the conservatives have relied on for every presidential victory they’ve achieved in the past half century or more.
Votes are earned not freely given. Your vote is your voice. Definitely vote at the local and state levels where your voice can be the loudest.
And if you only want to give half a vote, give it to Trump and JD.
(Because not voting is very similar to half a vote for the other guy.)
(Because not voting is very similar to half a vote for the other guy.)
Not voting wasn’t a vote for Trump. Did not voting for Trump mean a vote for Harris?
Did not voting for Trump mean a vote for Harris?
It would mean you wouldn’t have minded a Harris victory. The comment even explicitly said “half a vote” to reflect this.
This commentary is frequently also accompanied with blaming Harris voters for things that Trump is doing…
It was.
don’t worry bout dat
The komunist kids of lemmy like to outrage one another by invoking big bad capitalism, but always seem to side-step the fact that any and/or all forms of government/economies- when allowed to run unchecked, will exhibit similar results.
Look at both China and Russia. As authoritarian as it gets and the poors there suffer the same as we do, all all so that their elite can thrive just as ours does. And they like to pretend it’s not happening while in between the doom-scrolling on their capitalist-produced smartphones and watching corporate sponsored blowhards on YouTube their grubby little fingers point ever outward.
China produces ~65% of global smartphones. At worst US companies simply re-brand products from overseas OEMs, at best they’re using Chinese produced semiconductors and components to create original products.
The rest of the consumer electronics market is pretty similar. If you believe modern China is communist then they are “doom-scrolling on their communist-produced smartphones” through a communist produced network infrastructure which you are, most likely, reading through a communist-produced screen.
I would argue however that modern China largely split the difference between the USSR, which you are McCarthy-ing about, and the modern Russian Federation, which explicitly reformed into a liberal democracy with a capitalist market economy.
Tankies. Do not engage.
Smart. Having one’s echo chamber and worldview contested can be terribly inconvenient.
You should not attempt to reform something which is not reformable. Instead start something new.
In general, you should not reform. Revolution is the way forward.
Easy to say from your parents basement.
Instead of projection, try self-reflection.
What steps have you taken to start the New American Revolution, champ?
We need to capture the dems and turn them into a socialist party, just like the fascists captured the reps and turned them into a anti-worker. I spent way too long in the army to have the illusion that the american people are capable of changing anything through other means. It will not happen.
Not to be ignorant but I highly doubt you have the training, funding, or even the intestinal fortitude to do any of the things a revolution would entail. I also think that if you did find the courage it wouldn’t matter because when they drop a non-explosive shredder warhead through your window it’s all over. You have no idea what your asking people to do when there is a better way.
This reform is simply not possible. You cannot use the same methods as the far right and expect the same result but for a different ideology. They work differently, they’re based on different systems and beliefs.
And you seriously underestimate the power of revolutionary warfare. Technological advances in military warfare have made things harder, but not impossible. In 93 Russians were in the streets fighting the Russian military to overthrow Yeltsin. They had the courage, even without the military training. On Vietnam a nation and it’s people successfully defended their freedom against a technologically superior army. And I don’t think I need to list how many coups and revolutions have appeared over the past 100 years. You can’t think it’s impossible looking at history.
I am no billionaire able to fund a milita, nor am I a general. But when the time arises or rather if it arises while I live, I do have the zeal to kill and die for what I believe in.
No, as I said I was in the military for almost a decade. I promise you I’m way more versed in the art of turning people into fertilizer than you ever will be. 1993 was 30 some years ago. The techg for killing people has improved drastically. You have no idea how many ways the US has to kill you. I saw things in 2005 that would still blow your mind.
Technological advances do not change societal upheaval.
Revolutions don’t fight the military in symmetrical warfare.
Militaries can defect, they can be sabotaged, their bases besieged, their supply lines disrupted, their forces stretched too thin, etc.
In ideal circumstances no revolution would have to fight one united military. Parts would defect or declare neutrality. Those who fight have finite supply and finances. What will a soldier do when he runs out of bullets and more importantly rations?
But in the absolute worst case, it will either lead to a more bloody victory or the military would have to literally depopulate the country with lethal force to establish their rule.
Also the 90s are not so far from your 2005. The majority of the military equipment Russia uses today in Ukraine is the same as during the Black October in 93.
You should not attempt to reform something which is not reformable.
Pick up a fucking history book.
Political party reform is entirely possible and has happened repeatedly in American history. Conservative voters just did it to the Republican party.
Scrapping an established party with national sway for a 3rd party with NO clout and NO representatives in the House or Senate is fucking stupid. Especially when we have a national party in power currently attempting to dismantle our federal government to replace with an authoritarian one.
Revolution is the way forward.
Then do it. Big talk on the internet. If you think modern Americans are going to start a revolution, think again.
You are correct. The OP has an agenda and that agenda is to fracture liberals.
The answer is not to give up. The answer is not to vote for a worthless 3rd party with zero chance of winning. The answer is to reform the Democrat party and history has shown us, repeatedly, that it is completely possible. And it literally just happened with the Republican party in the last 2 decades.
What is the point of this meme?
These memes communicate to Democrats and their supporters that we’re sick and tired of their mask-off conservative rule when they promise us the world and do nothing once elected. You want praise? You want votes? Then do something.
Since, you know, not voting for them apparently isn’t enough to inspire meaningful change. Just once in my life I want to see Democrats fight harder for the working class and poor as they do against socialists and third parties.
You want praise? You want votes? Then do something.
Time for you to educate yourself. Look up Dem’s economic stats compared to Republicans. Look up the Dem’s voting history.
They aren’t doing EVERYTHING, but they do a lot more than the other viable option.
If you want them to do more, then stop wasting your time doing what you’re doing and start focusing on getting people to primary Dems who aren’t doing what we want, because that’s how you get Democrat party reform.
This meme is utter trash and only serves to fracture liberals and prevent the reform I just described.
Just once I want liberals to come together and primary bad Dems to send a message instead of fucking whining and not voting or voting 3rd party so fascists can take over.
Just once I want liberals to come together and primary bad Dems
That bad candidate was Joe Biden.
The Democratic Party just ignored it. Democratic primaries are a worthless exercise.
Joe Biden was not primaried.
Yes he was.
Read the link I embedded there. Also, there was Marianne Williamson.
Not that it would have mattered, as Democrats rig their primaries anyway.
That’s exactly it. This is the meme and attitude of tankies that are chomping at the bit for violence and doing everything they can to help push the country to the Right. This is because of their faith-based belief that it will magically create class consciousness and a revolution to overthrow the global bourgeoisie. They don’t give two shits about the LGBTQ+, POC, medically vulnerable, etc people that they have to sacrifice in the process.
Not saying capitalism is the best form, but which economic form is better given human greed and tendency for corruption?
The Republican party was a party of radical abolitionists and it was captured by the capitalists. The Democratic party can likewise be changed to something it is not currently.
You can’t convince me of what may be by talking about what is.
Roosevelt did great things for Americans while still being capitalist. The needle can be moved left without violent revolution.
“Both sides bad” is weak sauce.
No, the new deal only came to be after violent protests, and was largely a betrayal of labor groups because it gave a much watered down version of what was actually demanded, all while Roosevelt broke the strike he promised to support while campaigning. Read “Labor’s Giant Step Forward” by Art Preis if you want a more detailed accpunt
Quick reminder that there were other things going on in the 20s and 30s. You know, the height of socialism in the West, a strong labor movement willing to burn down factories, stuff like that. The New Deal didn’t come because leftists played nice.
I feel like Western labour just doesn’t have any leverage anymore. The rich simply do not need us. They have outsourced enough labour that they really don’t care if we strike en masse. Like, shut down which factories? They’re all overseas.
That’s what they want you to think. Their own lives depend on Western labor. That’s who runs the ports, the railways, the warehouses, etc. Also a lot of high-tech stuff is still in the West.
A socialist movement independent from either of the major parties too!
Blue Morpho apparently never learned about the Battle of Blair Mountain or the Railway Strikes.
The coal wars threatening to kick off a second civil war, y’know small things.
So there ARE conditions by which reform can occur, neat.
Yes, but you have to be willing to crack bourgeoisie skulls.
can it be done again without another series of protests and pain the current era of capitalism?
Yep.
All the keyboard warriors talking about revolution need to either pick up and gun and do it or get off their asses and help primary bad Dems to send a message and start the reformation process.
No one who made it out of high school should be saying “both sides” because it’s a profoundly stupid and unproductive thing to say. Did we have masked squads disappearing people before January? Did our allies all hate us? Were we threatening fucking Canada? Were we paying tariff taxes?
Both sides are varying degrees of the same ideology, give all the money to the economic elite so they bribe both parties into maintaining that policy above all other considerations.
One side shrugs and calls it free market forces(D) as you suffer under that policy goal, the other points and laughs at you and says you deserve it®. That is the extent of our “freedom” under American democracy.
One side appoints Justices that voted against Citizens United and one appoints Justices that voted for it. That’s a huge distinction.
Roosevelt was the least bad president and was ruling during a time where the US ended up on the right side of a conflict. He still did not abolish capitalism or the American empire, nor did he have any intentions to.
But that doesn’t make the democrats good, it doesn’t make one side better, it doesn’t make the US good.
it doesn’t make one side better
One side IS objectively better.
That’s proven by economic stats.
That’s proven by voting history.
That’s proven by criminal conviction history.
There is no debate which side is better if you’re even remotely interested in facts.
You take the side that is better and you reform it by primarying the reps that won’t play ball for their constituents., sending a clear message to the reps that remain. That is how democracy works in its most effective form.
With unintelligent comments like yours and all the discussions happening below meme threads, conflicts and violence is where we are heading to. I encourage you to learn more about the things you are talking about.
Have fun wasting your time doing this. If they only fucked over Burnie once I might agree with you.
Well, they will still try. They won’t give it up. But it’s not possible to win it against them, like the Tea Party won against less extreme establishment Republicans
In addition to the points raised by some of the other comments I’d remind you of one uncomfortable truth. The business plot was attempted fascist takeover of America. That was thankfully put down because remarkably there was one honorable ex-marine they tried to involve the plot. That’s Smedley Butler. In the wake of that that attempted fascist coup basically nobody was punished. In large part because Roosevelt told them as long as they kept their mouth shut and didn’t block the New Deal he wouldn’t go after them. That’s basically the only reason it got through. Truncated as it was even then. Because most of the richest and most powerful people in the country we’re looking down the barrel of a gun otherwise.
Prescott Bush and his cronies should have been hanged.
And Smedley Butler Day should be a national holiday.
If you had to go back almost a hundred years to find any kind of example, I’m just going to gesture broadly at the next hundred years and rest my case.
Both sides are functionally the same when it comes to the world. There’s barely a difference between domestic policy between the two American parties. One uses sweet nothing’s to try assuage your fears and the other uses Force and strongman techniques.
Yeah the FDR Reformation came directly from FDR and we pushed through at his behest. According to my understanding of these politics at a time if The president hadn’t been FDR we would not have gotten those Reformations. Besides they hardly matter nowadays when they’re practically entirely Stripped Away. The last surviving one is social security and they’re pretty gung-ho about getting rid of that too.
Both sides
Instant downvote. Lazy trash.
Couldn’t be bothered to read. Ad hominem attack. Excellent representation of the American voter.
People who type the words “both sides” and then post don’t deserve to have their comments read.
People who are unable to read are one of the reason the United States is in the toilet.
People who use fallacies so they don’t have to engage with the objective facts of an argument they’re not able to impeach are another reason the world is falling to facism
We need to get involved at the primary level, not lament the choices we are left with when primary election turnout is hilariously low. I’d be surprised if the average voter even knows what a primary election is.
This is a right-wing troll talking point. Don’t listen to it.
Go to the Democratic primaries and move the party left. And then, no matter who gets the nomination, vote Dem in the general election. This is exactly what the nazis did to move the GOP to the right and it worked great for them, and it’s something we can emulate.
Yeah, not listening to this defeatist garbage. The Democratic party has been changed before. It will be changed again. The party is not defined by some monolithic ideology. We need massive electoral reform in the US to ensure elections are actually fair. First past the post is problematic. House and Senate functions are problematic. We need a solution to the two party problem, but until then, our vehicle is the Democratic party. Best to make it do what we want it to rather than just give up because “they’re corporatists”.
Yeah, not listening to this defeatist garbage.
Defeatism is thinking the only option you have is playing by the rules the bourgeoisie instated, not “stop believing in a corrupt party”
Unlike you, we believe in multiple options. We’re trying to move the Dems to the left AND pushing for electoral reform AND planning an armed communist revolution.
And you’re just whining
This is a right-wing troll talking point. Don’t listen to it. This is a far left anarchist talking point
Preach!
no matter who gets the nomination, vote Dem in the general election
Its never worked before, but lets just try that again.
Great way to logic. Let me try…
You cannot reform the United States of America because at it’s core it is a capitalist and imperialist country that will always put corporate interests over human interests.
Oh shit, now the whole project is hopeless. Let me try again.
You cannot reform humanity because at it’s core it is selfish and self-serving.
I guess we are all fucked. Or maybe we grow the fuck up and deal with the reality of what’s in front of us and the work involved in making things better. If we can’t reform the Democrats, then we have no chance in hell of shepherding a new party from nothing to national powerhouse without losing it to the same corrupting forces that hold the Democrats. Never-mind the realities of what it would take to take over the country with a third party in a first past the post system.
Let me borrow a quote (paraphrase) from Rumsfeld: You build a society with the people you have, not the people you wish you had or may have at some future time
(Feel free to credit that directly to Rumsfeld. It’d piss him off.)
All nations are peopled with selfish and self-serving apes. We’ve always depended on sociological tricks to get them to function within the social contract, but it does mean those with more power tend to try to hoard it, and the mechanisms we used to curb that were all captured and broken.
We can build a better society, but it will mean either violently seizing the property of those in power, or threatening them with an even greater violence that could ruin all they value. General strikes have been effective sometimes in Europe, but it’s think-outside-the-box time.
Since we don’t have a salted hydrogen bomb, I got nothing personally, but I haven’t stopped thinking about it.
I see your point, however, the Democratic party is not fascist. It does provide a clear difference from the GOP. Wether we like it or not, USA is a two party system. We need to be practical here, not ideological, or we just go fascist forever.
ITT is some progressives who put more time, energy and anger into bullying other progressives not to vote for a genuinely progressive candidate, than they do into trying to sincerely convince Republican voters not to vote Republican.
There’s a logical fallacy at play in their minds where they think “Republican voters aren’t reasonable but progressives are, so I’ll spend my time trying to whip progressives into holding the Party line. Maybe cussing them out and accusing them of being complicit in the rise of fascism will help…”
“We’d rather have a convicted felon pedophile be president because the Democrats don’t want to dismantle capitalism entirely and replace with… well we don’t know what with”.
- Absolute fucking dumbasses.
Yeah, people generally want their politicians to help them.
And wealth inequality is the single biggest issue in human society.
We are at a point where if we want to help regular people, we need that to come at the expense of the rich.
That’s literally the definition of taxes.
My taxes don’t get spent on helpful things
Fair point
Why the new account? Did your last one get banned for this same bullshit trolling?
You’re arguing against your own masturbatory fantasy.
The left came out and voted for Harris. They held their nose and voted for the shit pile centrist, as they always do. We’ve seen with Mamdani that this loyalty is a one way street. Progressives hold their nose and vote for centrists, but centrists do not return the favor.
Harris lost because she couldn’t drive enough politically unaligned, low-engagement voters to the polls. The average person who isn’t that involved in politics simply didn’t think it was credible that Harris would improve their lives in any way.
Aside from a few performative tankies, the message I kept reading on lemmy was “I’m going to vote for Harris, but her dog shit policies are going to cost her the election.” And those progressive voices were ignored. Their desperate warnings were drowned out by people like yourself, sticking their fingers in their ears and going, “BLAH BLAH BLAH CAN’T HEAR YOU, VOTE BLUE NO MATTER WHO! IT’S YOUR FAULT IF THE FASCISTS WIN, I HOLD NO RESPONSIBILITY HERE!”
Harris lost because she couldn’t drive enough politically unaligned, low-engagement voters to the polls.
If those low engagement voters couldn’t make it to the polls to protect our democracy and prevent a felon rapist traitor from becoming President, then the problem lies primarily with those fucking fools, not Kamala Harris.
The inside strategy is far simpler
I love how it’s the fault of the voters and not the fault of the democrats for being shit, centrists, and genocide enjoyers
Why do you expect anyone to care about democracy. Only the wealthiest 10% of the population lives in a democracy. 90% of the population has zero actual democratic power. You don’t live in a democracy.
And Kamala, a candidate who was annointed, not elected, could credibly run on a platform of democracy.
Strawman? Like 3 separate strawman arguments?
Strawgang.
If Bernie Sanders doesn’t want to dismantle the current Democrats then it’s entirely Bernie’s fault. He’s to blame for capitalism.
Bernie created capitalism, he can destroy it. He chooses not to!
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It’s not the democratic party, it’s the US itself that is rotten. The dem are just another manifestation of the issue.
…you didn’t say fascist…
Maybe you’re not ready to hear this: Both sides are not the same.
somebody said it nicely yesterday in a lemmy comment:
we need to capture the dems and turn them into a socialist party,
just like the fascists captured the reps and turned them into a nazi partyDems will become the second nazi party before it becomes a socialist party. You saw the lip service to Bush.
Bingo.
There’s no way to win political power in the United States without the Democratic Party or the Republican Party.
Socialists and progressives will always have an easier time infiltrating the neoliberal Democratic Party over the fascist Republican Party.
The longer the fascists are in power the harder it will be remove them from power because they will change the rules to maintain power.
The optimal strategy remains to vote for neoliberals when the alternative is fascists because that is how to create time for socialists and progressives to primary neoliberals in the Democratic Party and win general elections.
This meme is a continuation of the accelerationism we saw during the 2024 election. It supports the fascist cause by attempting to sabotage leftist’s best strategy and thus is pro-fascist. The user is prone to self-sabotage as they publicly admitted to not voting for Harris in 2024.
If a fascist drinks at your bar and you don’t throw them out it’s a fascist bar. If a fascist meme ends up in your community and you don’t throw it your a fascist community.
I am reporting this meme. And you all should too. I’m sick of self-described leftists backstabing me and every other minority group they pretend to care about because they’re mad about the 2016 election. I’m a trans, atheist, Jew. I’m close enough to the death camps for my liking thanks. You don’t have to like the Democrats, I don’t, but we do need to vote for them.
I refuse to go quietly. I refuse to tolerate memes that shrug at my right to exist and throw fuel to the fire in the hopes that the fascists kill everyone faster. That’s not a real political position. It’s black pilled bullshit and it can fuck off.
Hope that helps people stop tolerating this bullshit going forward.
We just witnessed an internal party takeover in the Republican party. What dumbass thinks the same couldn’t possibly happen in the Democratic party?
David Hogg won a legitimate party election to become vice chair because he was popular and then was removed by tje DNC for having the wrong ideology.
They have shown us many times they will not allow themselves to change
Right. And trump didn’t take over the rnc in one go. It takes constant pressure. Keep fighting.
By his first election he absolutely owned the RNC
Not completely. McCain was blocking him.
McCain is still alive?
I haven’t seen him since he ran against Obama.
I was talking about after Trump’s 1st election. The rnc was about to repeal Obamacare (without a replacement) and McCain did his thumbs down before voting to not repeal it.
Because we haven’t put enough pressure on them yet.
Did you think this would end with David Hogg winning a vice chair position?
Gonna take more than that to change a party. But it’s better than everyone splitting the vote for various 3rd parties that have absolutely no presence at all, whatsoever.
Let’s see what happens with this NYC election. That’s a bigger deal than David Hogg.
If people start voting in primaries that can change.
Am I optimistic that it will? No. But the problem is that people who want to see change aren’t voting in primaries and then they complain that their choices suck.
I don’t think voting in a DNC primary will result in the most popular candidate being the chosen candidate to run as president. I beleive the DNC will choose the winner before the primary starts like they have for decades.
I don’t beleive a canidate hand picked by the DNC will create positive change
Obama was an upset candidate. Hillary was the DNC choice in 08.
Right…the primaries. Like when Jessica Cisneros ran in Texas, and Pelosi backed Henry Cuellar instead (voted with Trump >80% of the time) and poured tens of millions of DNC money into that race to ensure the progressive Cisneros lost.
Or perhaps more recently, when the DNC anointed candidates for the presidential nomination TWICE without holding a primary election in good faith. Then lost in spectacular fashion.
Establishment dems don’t play fair when they get challenged from the left, hell they completely throw democracy out the window when that happens. The party is lost and the real “Republican agents” are the ones saying “no no, keep voting blue you can change the party from within!” It’s a fool’s errand.
Ok.
So we’ve established that you like complaining.
Now let’s move on to the part where you have some suggestions.
Because if your suggestion is voting 3rd party you need to understand some things.
-
Which 3rd party? Cuz Americans splitting their votes among multiple 3rd parties guarantees a further decline into Republican fascism.
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No 3rd party, at all, is ready to start winning national elections. They aren’t even really winning any local or state elections. It’s going to take a long time before a 3rd party is viable IF one decides to start putting in the hard work. So what would you suggest doing in the meantime when it comes to national elections?
You don’t need to keep telling us everything is shitty. We get it. Start telling us what you think should be done about it that actually makes sense.
- Anything left of center. Honestly I don’t care so long as it meets that requirement. Anything is better than the corporate uniparty ruling over us today.
- Seems like you may not be familiar with PSL, check them out and then you can come back to tell me what you’ve learned.
In the meantime, here are some things you can do to help move us in the right direction:
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organize locally against the fascist regime which is presently stealing everything from working class voters and is imminently coming to place many of us into slave labor camps. Whatever you do - don’t give money to democrats unless they’re part of the squad or endorsed by rebellion pac.
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work towards getting money out of politics. If we don’t outlaw the presently legalized bribery, we simply have to take politicians at their word when they say they won’t take corporate pac money to control their votes. See Kirsten Sinema or John Fettterman for how well that tends to work out. Wolf PAC is non partisan and has been working towards this goal for years.
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if you absolutely refuse to look outside democrats for representation, at least support ones who are intent on changing the system to end corruption and help the working class. Rebellion PAC is endorsing these type of candidates, very selectively. David Hogg’s leaders we deserve is doing something similar, but with more of a focus on ousting crusty establishment Republicrats from their too-long-held seats.
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Yeah, the establishment has their thumb on the scale, and that sucks. It means that it will take more primary voters to overwhelm their influence. Like I said, I’m not optimistic.
But it is still the most viable path to change at this time. Unless you have a better suggestion? (Or do you just want to complain?)
New party, simple as.
FPTP. Simple as.
Yeah, we’ve got to get rid of it. Could have been done easily with voting rights act on Biden’s day 1, but golly gee just couldn’t find the votes for any of that “supporting democracy” initiative now could we. Now look at what’s become of American democracy just a few short years later. Pathetic.
Pigs can fly, simple as.
Enjoy descending further into fascism then, because that’s clearly the direction we’re ratcheting towards.
FPTP says hi. Won’t work.
Get rid of it and replace with star voting as a national standard. Abolish the electoral college. If Congress wont represent us in these initiatives, hold an article V convention for the states to directly amend the constitution with these new voting regulations.
Didn’t Bernie Sanders lead in 2019 and dems decided to go with Biden for safety?
If you mean that democratic primary voters in subsequent states voted for Biden after Sanders had the early lead, yes.
Yeah, I think you’re right. So it’s the people that suck, not just the parties.
At least the people currently voting in primaries suck. The solution is for more people who don’t suck to start voting in primaries
So it’s the people that suck, not just the parties.
Bingo.
Exactly. We need to fix the entrenchment, and we can fix this stupid two party system.
