Uff… again someone who thinks that politics are binary and left is left and right is right. Sure, a leader cult dictator is exactly the same as a liberal social democracy. All the same, correct?
The North Korean political system is close to identical to Nazi Germany. Another “far left” country then, correct?
We all know that liberty, freedom of personal expression and equality are the main ideals of North Korea, correct?
I expected that anyone who is actually following the discussion would understand that when we are talking about left and right we are talking about left and right in the year 2025 and not in the year 1958, and that we are talking about left and right in the west and not left and right in China or in countries that haven’t existed in 30+ years.
Because it’s some wildly different political movements with wildly different goals and ideals?
If you argue that all left movements throught time and space are identical, just because they are using the same rough label, then you are either argueing in bad faith or out of severe ignorance.
No. Elsewhere in this thread I argue that there are a lot of political dimension each with a spectrum of positions.
So if someone makes a massive generalisation and says “the left” don’t worship their political leaders, I feel it important to illustrate, with examples ,why that assumption is likely incorrect.
Man, these guys really just hated being associated with Stalin and Mao so much that they’re not picking up what you’re putting down. You’re correct, left wing movements can absolutely be led by authoritarians with a cult of personality. That said, I think most leftists view authoritarianism as something so abhorrent that they don’t associate those leaders with actual leftist policies.
Thanks for the understanding. Online discussion is usually so polarised that I suspect most people are assuming I’m attacking the left or defending the right.
I mean, if you make a line where dictatorship is on the far left and democracy is on the far right, then yeah, NK is “far left”. But on a more real note, there’s very little difference between the Kim dynasty and absolutist monarchies, or the dictatorships of Francisco Franco (Spain) and Antonio Salazar (Portugal), I doubt any of those were ever considered “political left” in any manner.
North Korea is a totalitarian dictatorship, but it is also left wing.
It has public ownership, it is anti capitalist. Production and the entire economy is centrally controlled and it was founded as a Marxist state with the backing of the soviet union.
You are among the many here who are confusing authoritarianism/liberalism with left/right ideologies. Funny how you mentioned Spain and Portugal but avoided Italy.
Economy and politics are intrinsically tied to one another, no matter how much some economy masters try to say otherwise. Regulations, tariffs and taxes happen because of political pressure and they all have a very direct and measurable effect on the economy. Democracies may not directly control economies like dictatorships can, but they can and do heavily influence it to work one way or another, via tax or tax breaks, easier or harder credit, etc. Culture also plays an important role, even if the majority of economy academics downplay or ignore it, just like they downplay or ignore the importance of nature, but that’s a different discussion.
it was founded as a Marxist state
Alright, can you tell me what are some of the marxist teachings that NK applies to how it runs the state and the economy? Because “being founded as” and “actually run as” are not the same. I mean, it’s official name is “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea”. It’s obviously not democratic and barely qualifies as a republic
confusing authoritarianism/liberalism with left/right ideologies
I’m not. Left wing ideology usually leans towards “the govt and economy should work for the good of the people”. Communism, which is as “far left” as it typically goes, assumes that the people collectively own all the means of production and government becomes unnecessary. Which leads to the next point
It has public ownership
NK doesn’t have “public” ownership, as in, the people cannot say that they collectively own anything, and literally have no say in how anything works, everything belongs to and is run according to the will of the state (or, more accurately, the current leader). Like I said before, not different from an absolutist monarchy. Unless you can argue that the majority of Kim’s policies are all for the good of the NK people, he cannot be considered “left”.
Funny how you mentioned Spain and Portugal but avoided Italy.
What, you gonna tell me that Mussolini was a far left politician?
NK doesn’t have “public” ownership, as in, the people cannot say that they collectively own anything.
Proof by contradiction. NK doesn’t have private ownership of companies therefore anything that exists is “public”. Definitely not right wing capitalism.
you gonna tell me that Mussolini was a far left politician?
Yes. Mussolini initially had socialist roots. Only later did he move in the authoritarian axis towards nationalism and fascism.
I love how this reply of yours is just a bunch of bad faith arguments, especially the first part that neatly ignores the fact that the state owns everything in NK, not unlike how a company owns and runs its property. I fully expect you to say that nazi germany was left wing because “national SOCIALISM!!!”
Yes, partially enforced, partially natural. Similarly with Trump. He’s doing his best to enforce it.
Historically authoritarianism has grown from the left wing (but it usually comes from the right). Recognising this helps guard against it happening again.
The former communist bloc took a lot longer than an instant. Their leaders were worshiped by some of the population.
North Korea is far left and their leader and his family are almost deities.
Uff… again someone who thinks that politics are binary and left is left and right is right. Sure, a leader cult dictator is exactly the same as a liberal social democracy. All the same, correct?
The North Korean political system is close to identical to Nazi Germany. Another “far left” country then, correct?
We all know that liberty, freedom of personal expression and equality are the main ideals of North Korea, correct?
This is the exact opposite of what I am saying.
The left/right spectrum is being conflated with the authoritarian/libertarian spectrum.
I’ve given many examples to counter the claim that “the left” won’t worship a leader.
I expected that anyone who is actually following the discussion would understand that when we are talking about left and right we are talking about left and right in the year 2025 and not in the year 1958, and that we are talking about left and right in the west and not left and right in China or in countries that haven’t existed in 30+ years.
Different years and countries were provided as examples of people on the left worshiping politicians.
What reason is there to believe that “The Left in the US in 2025” would be any different to what happened in other countries in other years?
Because it’s some wildly different political movements with wildly different goals and ideals?
If you argue that all left movements throught time and space are identical, just because they are using the same rough label, then you are either argueing in bad faith or out of severe ignorance.
No. Elsewhere in this thread I argue that there are a lot of political dimension each with a spectrum of positions.
So if someone makes a massive generalisation and says “the left” don’t worship their political leaders, I feel it important to illustrate, with examples ,why that assumption is likely incorrect.
Again, we were talking about a very specific left. And you have problems with understanding things like context.
I believe that the general comment about the very specific left is false, and I gave examples why I think it is false.
I haven’t yet heard any argument (never mind a good one) for why the statement that “the American left will never worship a politican” is true.
Man, these guys really just hated being associated with Stalin and Mao so much that they’re not picking up what you’re putting down. You’re correct, left wing movements can absolutely be led by authoritarians with a cult of personality. That said, I think most leftists view authoritarianism as something so abhorrent that they don’t associate those leaders with actual leftist policies.
Thanks for the understanding. Online discussion is usually so polarised that I suspect most people are assuming I’m attacking the left or defending the right.
I’m only highlighting lazy thinking.
I mean, if you make a line where dictatorship is on the far left and democracy is on the far right, then yeah, NK is “far left”. But on a more real note, there’s very little difference between the Kim dynasty and absolutist monarchies, or the dictatorships of Francisco Franco (Spain) and Antonio Salazar (Portugal), I doubt any of those were ever considered “political left” in any manner.
North Korea is a totalitarian dictatorship, but it is also left wing.
It has public ownership, it is anti capitalist. Production and the entire economy is centrally controlled and it was founded as a Marxist state with the backing of the soviet union.
You are among the many here who are confusing authoritarianism/liberalism with left/right ideologies. Funny how you mentioned Spain and Portugal but avoided Italy.
Economy and politics are intrinsically tied to one another, no matter how much some economy masters try to say otherwise. Regulations, tariffs and taxes happen because of political pressure and they all have a very direct and measurable effect on the economy. Democracies may not directly control economies like dictatorships can, but they can and do heavily influence it to work one way or another, via tax or tax breaks, easier or harder credit, etc. Culture also plays an important role, even if the majority of economy academics downplay or ignore it, just like they downplay or ignore the importance of nature, but that’s a different discussion.
Alright, can you tell me what are some of the marxist teachings that NK applies to how it runs the state and the economy? Because “being founded as” and “actually run as” are not the same. I mean, it’s official name is “Democratic People’s Republic of Korea”. It’s obviously not democratic and barely qualifies as a republic
I’m not. Left wing ideology usually leans towards “the govt and economy should work for the good of the people”. Communism, which is as “far left” as it typically goes, assumes that the people collectively own all the means of production and government becomes unnecessary. Which leads to the next point
NK doesn’t have “public” ownership, as in, the people cannot say that they collectively own anything, and literally have no say in how anything works, everything belongs to and is run according to the will of the state (or, more accurately, the current leader). Like I said before, not different from an absolutist monarchy. Unless you can argue that the majority of Kim’s policies are all for the good of the NK people, he cannot be considered “left”.
What, you gonna tell me that Mussolini was a far left politician?
Proof by contradiction. NK doesn’t have private ownership of companies therefore anything that exists is “public”. Definitely not right wing capitalism.
Yes. Mussolini initially had socialist roots. Only later did he move in the authoritarian axis towards nationalism and fascism.
I love how this reply of yours is just a bunch of bad faith arguments, especially the first part that neatly ignores the fact that the state owns everything in NK, not unlike how a company owns and runs its property. I fully expect you to say that nazi germany was left wing because “national SOCIALISM!!!”
There’s no bad faith. I’m giving historical and contemporary examples of left wing authoritarian worship.
There hasn’t even been an argument put forward to back the claim that this is impossible.
You mean ENFORCED “worship”
That IS NOT what is happening with Trump today and you know it. You are absolutely arguing in bad faith.
Yes, partially enforced, partially natural. Similarly with Trump. He’s doing his best to enforce it.
Historically authoritarianism has grown from the left wing (but it usually comes from the right). Recognising this helps guard against it happening again.
So now you’re gonna be one of those that pretends Italian fascists and German Nazis were “liberals”?
No. I refer you to my previous comment.
Wish I could still be this delusional. Ignorance really is bliss.