Lol. There is plenty of empirical data to show that the best men are better than the best women.
Have a gander at the records in all sports.
If that does t cut it, how about the European studie that tested the strength and fitness of over 2 million kids. It showed that top 5% of male at birth is stronger than top 1% of at the age of 9. It gets much, much more skewed after puberty.
Because the primary causitive variable here isn’t the person’s sex chromosomes but their relative hormone levels. It’s highly correlated to the sex chromosomes that one is born with, which is what your data shows, but it isn’t the cause.
Barring a syndrome, there is direct cause between being born with sex chromosomes and hormone shifts during puberty.
A rare example would be Caster Semenya. I 100% think she should be allowed to compete as a woman, as she was born as one. Even if her hormones are raised due to mutation.
There is no confusion about her sex. She was born as a woman and she considers herself a woman (not that it matters for sports, only that she was born as one)
Obviously taking drugs to match would be incredibly wrong. Just like doping is wrong.
She was born as a woman and she considers herself a woman
You are conflating sex and gender, she has 5α-reductase deficiency which exclusively effects individuals with an XY karyotype.
Either all women1, including Semenya, fall under that umbrella or none of them do. Pick one.
If your concern is about “unfair advantages gained via doping” then the majority of trans women competing are being much more fair because they are undergoing HRT to bring the “doping” back to within the typical woman baseline.
Unless your moral outrage is because you’re drawing a distinction between naturally occuring and artificial doping?
^1 I should have to fucking say this, but based on the fact we’re having this conversation: this inherently includes trans women.^
If your concern is about “unfair advantages gained via doping” then the majority of trans women competing are being much more fair because they are undergoing HRT to bring the “doping” back to within the typical woman baseline.
This is the issue at hand. How can you possibly justify reverse doping when none is allowed? This introduction of alteration that isn’t and can’t be available for everyone is inherently unfair. It also is troublesome in the opposite direction. What is then the legal limit for doping of a trans male? Can they take as much as they want since it’s part of their condition?
There is plenty of empirical data to show that the best men are better than the best women.
Wow.
We could pretend that you forgot to say something about “when it comes to sports” or some other kind of qualifier, but we all know that’d be a lie.
So, thank you for proving my point. It is truly just sad and pathetic the way you try to pretend like you even know empirical data means.
Take your bigotry and shove a back up your ass where it belongs.
(Did you really think that quoting an extremely widely discredited study that did not involve any empirical data whatsoever was some kind of gotcha? Jesus Christ, that’s just pathetic)
For the record, obsessing over other people’s genitalia is just fucking weird.
2 million people tested. Seems pretty solid if you ask me.
We could pretend that you forgot to say something about “when it comes to sports” or some other kind of qualifier, but we all know that’d be a lie.
Well, we are talking about sports? Are you actually trying to undermine my argument just because you can’t follow context? Stop arguing if you have nothing other than bad faith to come with.
Give me a better study showing that the trans medication actually works. The best anyone has given so far was a study showing 15 random people of Facebook that didn’t even compete in sports.
Read their comment again: the grammar is a little convoluted, but they’re just saying that they were talking about sports and that they were not ranking men above women in general.
None of this proves the op comment you replied to was “making shit up”, their only claim was that some trans women have less testosterone than cis women.
There are of course differences depending on the sport. But eventually the best men are better than the best women, which is the whole issue summed up. At the very least in physical sports.
Explosive sports exposes the issue more clearly. Which is why 15 year old boys win against the womens national team in football (soccer). 14 year olds have beat elite teams in womens hockey.
What am I making up? This woman almost certainly has athletic advantages far greater than the vast majority of the trans athletes people get so apoplectic about.
Stop making shit up to fit your narrative. It detracta (sic) from the actual issue.
If someone has ADHD and takes medication - as directed - to help them focus on their training regiment, would that make you as upset? It’s certainly a drug to “alter,” as you say.
It’s funny because you’re so close to understanding why sports aren’t fair right here. There’s all kinds of diseases, mutations, nutrition, upbringing, etc. that have bearing on the results of competition but you’ve chosen this random line in the sand of trans athletes to get up in arms about, wonder why that is? I wonder why Lebron spends 1.5 million on his body annually, look how fair we are guys!
Sports are of course both fair and unfair. But i find your example hilarious. LeBron James? Ah yes, the boy raised in a shithole, dirt poor by a single mother, but happened to both be exceptional at both working at his craft AND was lucky with the gene lottery.
There isn’t a better example of the greatness of sport, but you try to twist it to be a negative 😂
It’s as far from a random line in the sand as can be. Born men are not to compete against women. As long as there has existed womens sport, this rule exists implicitly, by definition.
This is how you started the conversation but all of a sudden I’m being condescending.
Sports are of course both fair and unfair.
But they only get to be unfair the in the ways that you decide right?
There isn’t a better example of the greatness of sport, but you try to twist it to be a negative 😂
Never said it was a negative, just trying to assess why some parts of sports get to be allowed in your definition of fair and unfair. I can give you a laundry list of the reasons why the NBA isn’t fair but I know this really has nothing to do with fairness for you. It’s odd how someone touting the greatness of sports is also a proponent of disqualifying some people from participating.
It’s as far from a random line in the sand as can be. Born men are not to compete against women. As long as there has existed womens sport, this rule exists implicitly, by definition.
We’ve always done it this way! What a great reason to keep doing something and never reflect and change for the better!
This is how you started the conversation but all of a sudden I’m being condescending.
Ye, it was a made up scenario completely irrelevant to the pic.
But they only get to be unfair the in the ways that you decide right?
Nope. Just by random chance in genes or by agreed upon rules. And a vast majority seems to agree that born men shouldn’t be allowed in the womens division. Seems pretty cut and dry.
We’ve always done it this way! What a great reason to keep doing something and never reflect and change for the better!
There is nothing to reflect on. Other than maybe having a trans-only category. If anyone would care to have one. Trans are already allowed to compete in the open category, aka mens.
Or you could remove womens sport all together, as that seems to be what you’re implying. Something i would be vehemetely against
Pretty sure the point is fun and entertainment. Some people care about finding the “best,” but as the saying goes, it’s not about whether you win or lose…
Now there is the actual issue at hand. Of course its about competition. That is the entire crux of the issue, and you can’t just wave it of like some irreverent side matter in the case of sports.
Kids already play mixed, since gender differences are small enough to be negligible. That is when the fun part matters the most.
I just find it funny that people are so willing to put actual trans rights in jeopardy just for the slight inconvenience of barely a dozen trans women in the US. Or you actually think it’s ok for men to compete with women?
I’ve always thought it was strange that we separated some sports by gender, and I still do. Especially because plenty of sports don’t separate by gender, and there’s no issue.
Google world records in literally any sport. There is a 10 - 30 percent difference depending on the sport.
Sports that are explosive in nature, like soccer or hockey are especially bad in comparison. There are countless examples of womens national teams in football(soccer) losing to 15 year old boys. That doesn’t happen in, for example, 100m dash or even longer events until about the age of 18-20.
Who’s “they”? You mean me? I didn’t imply anything, you inferred that. Also, I didn’t know idiots were born tall, that’s actually really helpful information, thanks!
Yes, you did. We were talking about drugging to improve at sports and the morality of it. Then you made a weird non-sequiter about her length, like it had any baring on the conversation.
Stop making shit up to fit your narrative. It detracts from the actual issue.
We all know you what you really meant:
“Stop drawing conclusions from empirical data, it interferes with my prejudice and bigotry.”
Or, did you actually think you were courageously taking a stand for…what, exactly? Being a jerk?
Did it really never occur to you that choosing to let your ignorant fear shape your perspective makes you weak??
Lol. There is plenty of empirical data to show that the best men are better than the best women.
Have a gander at the records in all sports.
If that does t cut it, how about the European studie that tested the strength and fitness of over 2 million kids. It showed that top 5% of male at birth is stronger than top 1% of at the age of 9. It gets much, much more skewed after puberty.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/52/22/1445.long
deleted by creator
Please tell me you didn’t realize we’re talking about athletes that have undergone HRT and this study isn’t applicable in that case.
Because the primary causitive variable here isn’t the person’s sex chromosomes but their relative hormone levels. It’s highly correlated to the sex chromosomes that one is born with, which is what your data shows, but it isn’t the cause.
Barring a syndrome, there is direct cause between being born with sex chromosomes and hormone shifts during puberty.
A rare example would be Caster Semenya. I 100% think she should be allowed to compete as a woman, as she was born as one. Even if her hormones are raised due to mutation.
If the doctors had designated her sex “correctly” when she was born would you hold the same opinion?
Why is her situation any different than someone who medically matches her hormonal levels, irregardless of assigned sex at birth?
There is no confusion about her sex. She was born as a woman and she considers herself a woman (not that it matters for sports, only that she was born as one)
Obviously taking drugs to match would be incredibly wrong. Just like doping is wrong.
You are conflating sex and gender, she has 5α-reductase deficiency which exclusively effects individuals with an XY karyotype.
Either all women1, including Semenya, fall under that umbrella or none of them do. Pick one.
If your concern is about “unfair advantages gained via doping” then the majority of trans women competing are being much more fair because they are undergoing HRT to bring the “doping” back to within the typical woman baseline.
Unless your moral outrage is because you’re drawing a distinction between naturally occuring and artificial doping?
^1 I should have to fucking say this, but based on the fact we’re having this conversation: this inherently includes trans women.^
This is the issue at hand. How can you possibly justify reverse doping when none is allowed? This introduction of alteration that isn’t and can’t be available for everyone is inherently unfair. It also is troublesome in the opposite direction. What is then the legal limit for doping of a trans male? Can they take as much as they want since it’s part of their condition?
Wow.
We could pretend that you forgot to say something about “when it comes to sports” or some other kind of qualifier, but we all know that’d be a lie.
So, thank you for proving my point. It is truly just sad and pathetic the way you try to pretend like you even know empirical data means.
Take your bigotry and shove a back up your ass where it belongs.
(Did you really think that quoting an extremely widely discredited study that did not involve any empirical data whatsoever was some kind of gotcha? Jesus Christ, that’s just pathetic)
For the record, obsessing over other people’s genitalia is just fucking weird.
2 million people tested. Seems pretty solid if you ask me.
Well, we are talking about sports? Are you actually trying to undermine my argument just because you can’t follow context? Stop arguing if you have nothing other than bad faith to come with.
Give me a better study showing that the trans medication actually works. The best anyone has given so far was a study showing 15 random people of Facebook that didn’t even compete in sports.
Whoa. Seriously? So if we’re not talking about sports you seriously just believe men are better than women.
Yeah goodbye. I’m done with you
Read their comment again: the grammar is a little convoluted, but they’re just saying that they were talking about sports and that they were not ranking men above women in general.
Edit: spelling
And only bad faith readings from you since you can’t understand that we are talking about sports.
Go lick a salt block or something.
A nazi stan wearing it in his username.
Get fucked lol.
Has had this nick since before the automaker existed, i’m not changing it just because people don’t think about Nikola tesla enough.
Says more about you than me.
ESAR.
None of this proves the op comment you replied to was “making shit up”, their only claim was that some trans women have less testosterone than cis women.
Not even the top men high school boys where better then the top female athletes.
There are of course differences depending on the sport. But eventually the best men are better than the best women, which is the whole issue summed up. At the very least in physical sports.
Explosive sports exposes the issue more clearly. Which is why 15 year old boys win against the womens national team in football (soccer). 14 year olds have beat elite teams in womens hockey.
How many of these best men become trans? Can you name a few?
Doesn’t matter if, but that they could.
What am I making up? This woman almost certainly has athletic advantages far greater than the vast majority of the trans athletes people get so apoplectic about.
Stop making shit up to fit your narrative. It detracta (sic) from the actual issue.
Yes. Her being born that way is completely fair. As she was born that way. Same goes for Caster Semenya.
Taking drugs to “alter” is against all sports.
But hey, South Park said it best.
https://youtu.be/wxDaiyREBPw
If someone has ADHD and takes medication - as directed - to help them focus on their training regiment, would that make you as upset? It’s certainly a drug to “alter,” as you say.
I suppose if all could take adderall, then it wouldn’t be an issue.
I think you are missing the point of competition though.
It’s funny because you’re so close to understanding why sports aren’t fair right here. There’s all kinds of diseases, mutations, nutrition, upbringing, etc. that have bearing on the results of competition but you’ve chosen this random line in the sand of trans athletes to get up in arms about, wonder why that is? I wonder why Lebron spends 1.5 million on his body annually, look how fair we are guys!
Please loose the condescending tone.
Sports are of course both fair and unfair. But i find your example hilarious. LeBron James? Ah yes, the boy raised in a shithole, dirt poor by a single mother, but happened to both be exceptional at both working at his craft AND was lucky with the gene lottery.
There isn’t a better example of the greatness of sport, but you try to twist it to be a negative 😂
It’s as far from a random line in the sand as can be. Born men are not to compete against women. As long as there has existed womens sport, this rule exists implicitly, by definition.
This is how you started the conversation but all of a sudden I’m being condescending.
But they only get to be unfair the in the ways that you decide right?
Never said it was a negative, just trying to assess why some parts of sports get to be allowed in your definition of fair and unfair. I can give you a laundry list of the reasons why the NBA isn’t fair but I know this really has nothing to do with fairness for you. It’s odd how someone touting the greatness of sports is also a proponent of disqualifying some people from participating.
We’ve always done it this way! What a great reason to keep doing something and never reflect and change for the better!
Ye, it was a made up scenario completely irrelevant to the pic.
Nope. Just by random chance in genes or by agreed upon rules. And a vast majority seems to agree that born men shouldn’t be allowed in the womens division. Seems pretty cut and dry.
There is nothing to reflect on. Other than maybe having a trans-only category. If anyone would care to have one. Trans are already allowed to compete in the open category, aka mens.
Or you could remove womens sport all together, as that seems to be what you’re implying. Something i would be vehemetely against
Pretty sure the point is fun and entertainment. Some people care about finding the “best,” but as the saying goes, it’s not about whether you win or lose…
Now there is the actual issue at hand. Of course its about competition. That is the entire crux of the issue, and you can’t just wave it of like some irreverent side matter in the case of sports.
Kids already play mixed, since gender differences are small enough to be negligible. That is when the fun part matters the most.
I just find it funny that people are so willing to put actual trans rights in jeopardy just for the slight inconvenience of barely a dozen trans women in the US. Or you actually think it’s ok for men to compete with women?
Who said anything about letting men compete with women?
Trans women are born men
Sports are dumb, just stop caring.
Life is objectively dumb. That doesn’t mean we should stop caring.
I don’t think they are. But thats just an opinion and all of that.
I’ve always thought it was strange that we separated some sports by gender, and I still do. Especially because plenty of sports don’t separate by gender, and there’s no issue.
Its not strange at all.
Google world records in literally any sport. There is a 10 - 30 percent difference depending on the sport.
Sports that are explosive in nature, like soccer or hockey are especially bad in comparison. There are countless examples of womens national teams in football(soccer) losing to 15 year old boys. That doesn’t happen in, for example, 100m dash or even longer events until about the age of 18-20.
Oh, so you’re just a bigot. Figured.
There is no such thing as fair in sports.
I guarantee she wasn’t born that tall
I guarantee you that she didn’t take medicines to get that tall.
Who made that claim?
They made the comment that she wasnt born tall, like an idiot. Implying that she wouldn’t have been tall naturally.
Joke Explainer: When Anna Smrek was born she was not 6’ 9’', she was likely closer to 20in.
Who’s “they”? You mean me? I didn’t imply anything, you inferred that. Also, I didn’t know idiots were born tall, that’s actually really helpful information, thanks!
Yes, you did. We were talking about drugging to improve at sports and the morality of it. Then you made a weird non-sequiter about her length, like it had any baring on the conversation.
Get fucked, asshat.
So were you just born stupid or did you take something to perform at this level?
Nope, i transitioned.
And we respect that transition by calling you stupid, I don’t see why you can’t do the same.
Hey man if you ever find yourself in a situation where they make drugs that can make you better I think you should take them
Just go forcefully insert a cactus into your anus already. No one cares about you.