My American catholic school taught us that creationism is against catholic doctrine. They also taught the controversy.
My friends who went to public school got less instruction on evolution and their science teachers were obviously creationist while mine barely hid that she thought it was moronic
All of my friends who went to catholic school had the opposite experience. Evolution was handwaved away as complete nonsense, and God’s benevolence was the answer for why people exist. My public school taught evolution very thoroughly, though none of my science teachers seemed creationist.
Strange. We had just enough Jesuit influence to tell us that God was why, but what and how is best understood through science. Non overlapping magesteria and whatnot.
Now thats not to say they didnt spew some shit. Hell we once got pulled out of class to look at magic bones (internet atheist Latin teacher didn’t like that lol), and our Christian lifestyles class was mostly bigotry and marriage advice, but science class was for understanding the world and the scientific method.
Not sure what point you’re trying to make. The seat of Catholicism in Europe and American fundamentalists have very few things in common. Even American Catholics have very little crossover with their evangelical counterparts.
The point I’m trying to make is Christianity across the globe is an absurd denial of facts and the observable world. There isn’t really anything more dramatic about American Christians vs Christians in Europe or anywhere else for that matter.
I too was raised with religion (Catholicism) in the US, while my wife grew up going to Baptist churches - our childhoods could not have been more different. I was taught that studying science and the processes of observation and inquiry bring you closer to God, while for her the sciences were alternately ignored or lied about. Our family gave into the collection basket of our own will because we believed raising funds for good causes was the right thing to do. Her family was under compulsory tithing - 10% of all income. I was allowed to read whatever books, consume whatever media, and wear whatever I wanted, she was not. The list goes on…
I’m not trying to whitewash Catholicism - it obviously has its own major issues that shouldn’t be ignored, but it’s a far cry from the fundamentalist book burners who my family thought of as zealous nut bags.
In Germany, religious defamation is covered by Article 166 of the Strafgesetzbuch, the German criminal law. If a deed is capable of disturbing the public peace, defamation is actionable. The article reads as follows:[53]
§ 166 Defamation of religious denominations, religious societies and World view associations
(1) Whoever publicly or by dissemination of writings (§ 11 par. 3) defames, in a manner suitable to disturb the public peace, the substance of the religious or world view conviction of others, shall be fined or imprisoned for up to three years.
(2) Whoever publicly or by dissemination of writings (§ 11 par. 3) defames, in a manner suitable to disturb the public peace, a church existing in Germany or other religious society or world view association, or their institutions or customs, shall be punished likewise.
In 2006, the application of this article received much media attention when a Manfred van H. (also known as “Mahavo”) was prosecuted for defamation for distributing rolls of toilet paper with the words “Koran, the Holy Koran” stamped on them.[54][55][56] The defendant claimed he wanted to protest the murder of Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh in 2004 and the London bombings of 2005. Beyond the sentence he also received death threats from Islamists and needed a police bodyguard.[56]
What is called “Blasphemy law” here is just protection of religious people, in particular minorities against persecution and incitement of hatred. You know, because last time when it was en vogue in Germany it led to millions of people being exterminated for their (alleged) religious affiliation.
If such a protection is called “Blasphemy law”, the same would have to be said for laws protecting LGBT, disabled people, ethnic minorities and other vulnerable groups.
What they have on the books and what they enforce/how people live, are two very different things.
I appreciate that link, it’s enlightening, I didn’t know some of those countries still had it on their books.
However, the actual people living in Europe (at least Western Europe) ignore pretty much all of that. Everyone blasphemies all the time, nobody cares.
If anyone’s religious, they generally keep it to themselves in the EU.
If they’re religious in the US, they talk about it as if everyone else is as well, and pray for you and will pray to God to heal you from whatever affliction you have.
You pretty much cant’ escape the religious fanaticism that exists in the US from the people. It’s got nothing to do with the laws on the books (yet, but give the Christo-fascists time…), and everything to do with the insanity that is being religious in the US and making it a part of every aspect of your life, and forcing everyone else around you to participate whether they want to or not.
I’ve spent a good bit of time in Europe, and never once, not even remotely, have I ever been asked anything religious or had anyone talk about God, or Jesus, or offer to pray for me, etc.
I met a Tattoo artist the other day that said he’d pray for me and that Jesus can “do all things through Christ” (which I guess is Jesus doing everything through himself?) completely unprompted and without displaying anything other than a plain black t-shirt.
This happens constantly. Everywhere in the US. And if you’re anywhere near a mega church, holy shit, those people are pure insanity. I’ve been to sermons where people are speaking in “tongues” and yelling jibberish, flopping about on the floor during a big tent-revival thing, hitting people to smack the “demons” out of them, screaming and rolling on the ground to escape demons (or praise God, it’s difficult to tell sometimes), etc.
Nothing like that exists in western Europe to my knowledge. Or if it does, nothing even close to the scale it’s displayed in the US exists.
Did you see the picture of the Vatican I posted in comparison to that evangelical weirdo’s little theater in the US? So much for “keeping it to themselves” there is practically a sovereign state for one branch of Christians in Europe.
Man, I’m trying to help out here, but you’re making it difficult by conflating these things.
They are not the same. You seem to be on the same side as everyone else here in terms of disliking/hating organized religion. With you on that. I have a deep, deep, deep hatred and mistrust of that given my upbringing in the US.
However, it is not a fair comparison that the Vatican or the way religion in Western Europe is in any way similar to what’s going on in those evangelical revival tents/places.
I’ve been to and lived in/through both, and so have a lot of people replying to you. It seems like your first hand experience with religion in Western Europe is perhaps extremely limited and you’re looking at extremely superficial similarities (like the opulence of the Vatican or how it’s basically its own country, sort of thing).
It’s tradition. You’re looking at things from the times during the crusades, sort of thing. What’s left in Europe is mostly just traditional religion stuff, that’s more about ceremony and habit than any actual true fanatical belief in anything.
There are no preachers on street corners in Europe that I’ve ever seen or heard of.
There’s no big tent revival things.
There’s no people shoving their religion down your throat.
There’s no crazy mega-church speaking in tongues shit.
That’s largely contained in the US. Whatever superficial similarities you’re seeing between the two regions is just that, superficial.
I encourage you to go over to Europe and visit these sights.
I’ve been to the Vatican. It’s basically just a bunch of money thrown at artists during the Renaissance period because the church had too damn much money. It’s an attraction. It’s a circus. A sideshow.
Even the devout Catholics over there keep it to themselves. They’re science focused (generally), and tend to not let it affect their social discourse too much. Nobody ever asks for your religion over there or assumes you’re a Christian.
Europe has an absolute shitton of non-believers, especially depending on the country we’re talking about (Norway/Finland/Iceland are some of the highest number of Agnostic/Atheists).
There’s not many other ways I can explain this right now other than you are wrong. It’s understandable why you think what you think, because on the surface you could make these connections, but I absolutely promise you, if you were to go and live in Western Europe for even a week or more; you’d learn quickly how little religion plays a part in anyone’s life over there.
I’ll lob the ball back over the fence here. Old textbooks with outdated views of a niche sect of Christian beliefs are probably less important to most Christians than the Vatican is, even to non-Catholic Christians.
Eh. Probably not. Protestants don’t really give a rat’s ass what the Vatican thinks, and the official position of the Roman Catholic Church on creation is “Theistic Evolution,” whereas these nonsense Protestant textbooks teach that evolution isn’t real.
Source: grew up in almost as close to Catholic as a Protestant church can get, but was still taught that the office of the papacy is “a form of Antichrist.”
How much do you care about this belief that electricty is a complete mystery? Were you even aware that this was a mainstream teaching of a small sect of Christians before you saw this meme?
Please note the “Global Statistics” section which notes that evangelicals exist in over 120 different countries, including countries in Europe, South America, Africa and Asia.
How much do you care about this belief that electricty is a complete mystery? Were you even aware that this was a mainstream teaching of a small sect of Christians before you saw this meme?
I don’t care at all about “this belief that electricity is a complete mystery.” It’s not a part of any form of Christianity with which I am familiar. It strikes me as the kind of thing someone might write in a children’s textbook because they themselves don’t know what they’re talking about and aren’t going to let that stop them from selling a textbook.
But I also don’t really care what the Vatican says, except as it has an impact on the world. My beliefs, as they are, are in no way affected by the Vatican.
For what it’s worth, I was never taught this nonsense. The Christian school I attended growing up was actually a phenomenal education, lacking only in specific areas like evolution. We consistently scored higher than most other area schools on everything, including science. My understanding of electricity when finishing 8th grade and moving over to public school for high school was as good, if not better, than the average middle schooler (which isn’t, you know, a profound understanding, but also not “no one knows” either).
I don’t think this particular textbook is indicative of religious education in the US in general, and it’s clearly an old textbook based on the image, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if there is some wackjob church that teaches this shit. There are crazy people in all corners of the world, after all.
All I was saying was that, in general, Protestants are more likely to care what some old textbook says than what the Vatican says. They still teach Young Earth Creation, after all. Perhaps not this textbook though.
Yep, you long-form summarized my point. For the most part, Christians in the US do have an understanding of modern phenomena, and they aren’t any crazier than most Christians anywhere else on the planet.
Gotcha. Broadly I agree with that, although I will say in response to “they aren’t any crazier” part that I fear the evangelical movement in the US more than most places. They seem to not care at all about their actual religion and instead worship power. It’s disconcerting to say the least.
But it isn’t about a misunderstanding of modern phenomena, it’s about a misunderstanding of their own scripture.
Yeah I went to Catholic high school in the US. Received an excellent education, which was much better than what the public schools offered. It made college very easy for me, while I watched public school graduates struggle with basic general education concepts.
“Christians” is a broad term, which includes non-Catholics. And within that group there is another huge spectrum where many fall on the crazier side.
They also have a ton of books saying that the universe was created in 7 days, and that when you take communion, wine and bread are literally transformed into blood and flesh of a zombie diety.
Ah yes, because changes in the interpretation of the word of God by mere mortals is different from changing the word of God.
Those weren’t “days” per se, it’s more like undefined segments of time. Humans weren’t literally made of of clay, it’s just a stand-in for god’s brainstorming putty.
Ooh ooh, my turn! God made us in his image, but he doesn’t actually have a dick and balls, or even a real form, but he is definitely a ‘he’ despite not having a biologically defined sex, so God created individually selected pronouns and put them in his bio.
Do you see how all this is absolutely absurd? I just changed the meaning of the “literal word of God” and my reasoning is a concrete as any other interpertation, it simply lacks consensus, (which is not a proof BTW). The idea that mortals can re-write the literal meaning and intent of a omnipotent deity is more absurd than stating that we aren’t really sure where electicty comes from.
I’m an atheist, and that reply is kinda coming off as assholary.
Modern Catholicism has a lot to critique, but their support of science has been really good, especially compared to fundamentalist religions in the US.
As for the explanations for terms (handwaves), I’d say the Talmud started that long ago.
American Christianity is so weird.
I went to Italian catholic school from kindergarten to high school and studied dinosaurs and shit, nobody gets to american level of nonsense
My American catholic school taught us that creationism is against catholic doctrine. They also taught the controversy.
My friends who went to public school got less instruction on evolution and their science teachers were obviously creationist while mine barely hid that she thought it was moronic
Yeah, catholic school are generally better about teaching science than other denominations; especially the evangelicals.
All of my friends who went to catholic school had the opposite experience. Evolution was handwaved away as complete nonsense, and God’s benevolence was the answer for why people exist. My public school taught evolution very thoroughly, though none of my science teachers seemed creationist.
Strange. We had just enough Jesuit influence to tell us that God was why, but what and how is best understood through science. Non overlapping magesteria and whatnot.
Now thats not to say they didnt spew some shit. Hell we once got pulled out of class to look at magic bones (internet atheist Latin teacher didn’t like that lol), and our Christian lifestyles class was mostly bigotry and marriage advice, but science class was for understanding the world and the scientific method.
Mostly because American school is about brainwashing, which isn’t the case for the vast majority of everywhere else.
I may have a simple American education… But I’m pretty sure the Vatican is in Europe.
Not sure what point you’re trying to make. The seat of Catholicism in Europe and American fundamentalists have very few things in common. Even American Catholics have very little crossover with their evangelical counterparts.
The point I’m trying to make is Christianity across the globe is an absurd denial of facts and the observable world. There isn’t really anything more dramatic about American Christians vs Christians in Europe or anywhere else for that matter.
As an American raised in a religious household who’s extremely familiar with European culture, people, and living; you are unfortunately wrong.
American Christianity is its own brand, and Europe has absolutely nothing like it. Nothing. Not at the scale of US religion absurdity.
I too was raised with religion (Catholicism) in the US, while my wife grew up going to Baptist churches - our childhoods could not have been more different. I was taught that studying science and the processes of observation and inquiry bring you closer to God, while for her the sciences were alternately ignored or lied about. Our family gave into the collection basket of our own will because we believed raising funds for good causes was the right thing to do. Her family was under compulsory tithing - 10% of all income. I was allowed to read whatever books, consume whatever media, and wear whatever I wanted, she was not. The list goes on…
I’m not trying to whitewash Catholicism - it obviously has its own major issues that shouldn’t be ignored, but it’s a far cry from the fundamentalist book burners who my family thought of as zealous nut bags.
That’s because Europe sent us all their religious crazies right at the start.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law
There are parts of Europe where the fanaticism is so entrenched that you can be fined or go to jail for blasphemy.
So I’m seriously doubting your opinion that American Christians are on the whole crazier and more fanatical than Christians anywhere else.
From your source:
What is called “Blasphemy law” here is just protection of religious people, in particular minorities against persecution and incitement of hatred. You know, because last time when it was en vogue in Germany it led to millions of people being exterminated for their (alleged) religious affiliation.
If such a protection is called “Blasphemy law”, the same would have to be said for laws protecting LGBT, disabled people, ethnic minorities and other vulnerable groups.
What they have on the books and what they enforce/how people live, are two very different things.
I appreciate that link, it’s enlightening, I didn’t know some of those countries still had it on their books.
However, the actual people living in Europe (at least Western Europe) ignore pretty much all of that. Everyone blasphemies all the time, nobody cares.
If anyone’s religious, they generally keep it to themselves in the EU.
If they’re religious in the US, they talk about it as if everyone else is as well, and pray for you and will pray to God to heal you from whatever affliction you have.
You pretty much cant’ escape the religious fanaticism that exists in the US from the people. It’s got nothing to do with the laws on the books (yet, but give the Christo-fascists time…), and everything to do with the insanity that is being religious in the US and making it a part of every aspect of your life, and forcing everyone else around you to participate whether they want to or not.
I’ve spent a good bit of time in Europe, and never once, not even remotely, have I ever been asked anything religious or had anyone talk about God, or Jesus, or offer to pray for me, etc.
I met a Tattoo artist the other day that said he’d pray for me and that Jesus can “do all things through Christ” (which I guess is Jesus doing everything through himself?) completely unprompted and without displaying anything other than a plain black t-shirt.
This happens constantly. Everywhere in the US. And if you’re anywhere near a mega church, holy shit, those people are pure insanity. I’ve been to sermons where people are speaking in “tongues” and yelling jibberish, flopping about on the floor during a big tent-revival thing, hitting people to smack the “demons” out of them, screaming and rolling on the ground to escape demons (or praise God, it’s difficult to tell sometimes), etc.
Nothing like that exists in western Europe to my knowledge. Or if it does, nothing even close to the scale it’s displayed in the US exists.
Did you see the picture of the Vatican I posted in comparison to that evangelical weirdo’s little theater in the US? So much for “keeping it to themselves” there is practically a sovereign state for one branch of Christians in Europe.
Man, I’m trying to help out here, but you’re making it difficult by conflating these things.
They are not the same. You seem to be on the same side as everyone else here in terms of disliking/hating organized religion. With you on that. I have a deep, deep, deep hatred and mistrust of that given my upbringing in the US.
However, it is not a fair comparison that the Vatican or the way religion in Western Europe is in any way similar to what’s going on in those evangelical revival tents/places.
I’ve been to and lived in/through both, and so have a lot of people replying to you. It seems like your first hand experience with religion in Western Europe is perhaps extremely limited and you’re looking at extremely superficial similarities (like the opulence of the Vatican or how it’s basically its own country, sort of thing).
It’s tradition. You’re looking at things from the times during the crusades, sort of thing. What’s left in Europe is mostly just traditional religion stuff, that’s more about ceremony and habit than any actual true fanatical belief in anything.
There are no preachers on street corners in Europe that I’ve ever seen or heard of. There’s no big tent revival things. There’s no people shoving their religion down your throat. There’s no crazy mega-church speaking in tongues shit.
That’s largely contained in the US. Whatever superficial similarities you’re seeing between the two regions is just that, superficial.
I encourage you to go over to Europe and visit these sights.
I’ve been to the Vatican. It’s basically just a bunch of money thrown at artists during the Renaissance period because the church had too damn much money. It’s an attraction. It’s a circus. A sideshow.
Even the devout Catholics over there keep it to themselves. They’re science focused (generally), and tend to not let it affect their social discourse too much. Nobody ever asks for your religion over there or assumes you’re a Christian.
Europe has an absolute shitton of non-believers, especially depending on the country we’re talking about (Norway/Finland/Iceland are some of the highest number of Agnostic/Atheists).
There’s not many other ways I can explain this right now other than you are wrong. It’s understandable why you think what you think, because on the surface you could make these connections, but I absolutely promise you, if you were to go and live in Western Europe for even a week or more; you’d learn quickly how little religion plays a part in anyone’s life over there.
Most evangelicals think Catholics are devil worshippers, just like Muslims.
Not to be that guy but the vatican is important to catholics; not christians as a whole.
In my experience american christianity is a whole other ball game
I’ll lob the ball back over the fence here. Old textbooks with outdated views of a niche sect of Christian beliefs are probably less important to most Christians than the Vatican is, even to non-Catholic Christians.
Eh. Probably not. Protestants don’t really give a rat’s ass what the Vatican thinks, and the official position of the Roman Catholic Church on creation is “Theistic Evolution,” whereas these nonsense Protestant textbooks teach that evolution isn’t real.
Source: grew up in almost as close to Catholic as a Protestant church can get, but was still taught that the office of the papacy is “a form of Antichrist.”
How much do you care about this belief that electricty is a complete mystery? Were you even aware that this was a mainstream teaching of a small sect of Christians before you saw this meme?
I dunno if we can call Evangelicals a small sect at this time. Especially not in the US. Catholicism is a “small sect” in the US, for the most part.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelicalism
Please note the “Global Statistics” section which notes that evangelicals exist in over 120 different countries, including countries in Europe, South America, Africa and Asia.
I don’t care at all about “this belief that electricity is a complete mystery.” It’s not a part of any form of Christianity with which I am familiar. It strikes me as the kind of thing someone might write in a children’s textbook because they themselves don’t know what they’re talking about and aren’t going to let that stop them from selling a textbook.
But I also don’t really care what the Vatican says, except as it has an impact on the world. My beliefs, as they are, are in no way affected by the Vatican.
For what it’s worth, I was never taught this nonsense. The Christian school I attended growing up was actually a phenomenal education, lacking only in specific areas like evolution. We consistently scored higher than most other area schools on everything, including science. My understanding of electricity when finishing 8th grade and moving over to public school for high school was as good, if not better, than the average middle schooler (which isn’t, you know, a profound understanding, but also not “no one knows” either).
I don’t think this particular textbook is indicative of religious education in the US in general, and it’s clearly an old textbook based on the image, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if there is some wackjob church that teaches this shit. There are crazy people in all corners of the world, after all.
All I was saying was that, in general, Protestants are more likely to care what some old textbook says than what the Vatican says. They still teach Young Earth Creation, after all. Perhaps not this textbook though.
Edit: Happy cake day, by the way!
Yep, you long-form summarized my point. For the most part, Christians in the US do have an understanding of modern phenomena, and they aren’t any crazier than most Christians anywhere else on the planet.
Gotcha. Broadly I agree with that, although I will say in response to “they aren’t any crazier” part that I fear the evangelical movement in the US more than most places. They seem to not care at all about their actual religion and instead worship power. It’s disconcerting to say the least.
But it isn’t about a misunderstanding of modern phenomena, it’s about a misunderstanding of their own scripture.
Yeah I went to Catholic high school in the US. Received an excellent education, which was much better than what the public schools offered. It made college very easy for me, while I watched public school graduates struggle with basic general education concepts.
“Christians” is a broad term, which includes non-Catholics. And within that group there is another huge spectrum where many fall on the crazier side.
The Vatican library has books on how electricity works.
They also have a ton of books saying that the universe was created in 7 days, and that when you take communion, wine and bread are literally transformed into blood and flesh of a zombie diety.
That’s just not really true, for Catholics. Not for a few centuries at least.
Ah yes, because changes in the interpretation of the word of God by mere mortals is different from changing the word of God.
Those weren’t “days” per se, it’s more like undefined segments of time. Humans weren’t literally made of of clay, it’s just a stand-in for god’s brainstorming putty.
Ooh ooh, my turn! God made us in his image, but he doesn’t actually have a dick and balls, or even a real form, but he is definitely a ‘he’ despite not having a biologically defined sex, so God created individually selected pronouns and put them in his bio.
Do you see how all this is absolutely absurd? I just changed the meaning of the “literal word of God” and my reasoning is a concrete as any other interpertation, it simply lacks consensus, (which is not a proof BTW). The idea that mortals can re-write the literal meaning and intent of a omnipotent deity is more absurd than stating that we aren’t really sure where electicty comes from.
I’m an atheist, and that reply is kinda coming off as assholary.
Modern Catholicism has a lot to critique, but their support of science has been really good, especially compared to fundamentalist religions in the US.
As for the explanations for terms (handwaves), I’d say the Talmud started that long ago.
Oh, don’t get me wrong… I think its all absurd. Just mentioning Catholics don’t buy into this tripe anymore.
So you’re not Danish, noted.