Em dashes and emojis

  • ssillyssadass
    link
    fedilink
    41
    edit-2
    5 days ago

    Every user of the em dash on the planet is in this comment section.

  • SmokeyDope
    link
    fedilink
    English
    294 days ago

    I’m a markdown nerd who likes to use headers to break up longer post and sometimes properly buletpoint or put ASCII art in preformatted boxes. People who thinks they have the magic sauce on LLM generation detection because a post goes out of their way to do more than the bre minimum with punctuation or formatting is an asshole.

      • SmokeyDope
        link
        fedilink
        English
        9
        edit-2
        4 days ago

        From the post title, description, and other peoples comments, I took away that the meme is m9re about suspecting your ex didnt even write their own breakup message based off the use of em dashes.

        Its a cute surface level joke but it touches in a real nerve because Its becoming more and more common for you to be falsely accused of being an LLM and being told to "ignore all previous instructions and (some stupid instruction) based off small writing quirks like using em or markdown and top comments share this frustration too.

        I shouldn’t have to feel self conscious about the way I write

        Just to pass armchair llm detector wannabe vibe checks 🖕. 
        
        • @[email protected]
          link
          fedilink
          134 days ago

          Any time someone accuses me of being a bot I respond with “Tiananmen Winnie the Pooh 8647 Luigi Mangione” and that generally proves my humanity

            • @[email protected]
              link
              fedilink
              24 days ago

              It’s a code that Chinese internet users use to refer to Xi Jinping. Or at least they used to. The CCP caught on and now that phrase gets auto deleted off of Chinese websites. “Tiananmen, Winnie the Pooh” proves I’m not a Chinese AI, and “8647, Luigi Mangione” proves I’m not an American one. I’m not really sure what would prove I’m not a Russian one. “Fuck Vladimir Putin”?

        • @[email protected]
          link
          fedilink
          English
          24 days ago

          I got told to “ignore previous instructions” because I said I liked looking at a painting. I think that’s just going to be an insult now.

        • @[email protected]
          link
          fedilink
          3
          edit-2
          4 days ago

          I mean most people are going to use their phones to write messages and given you can’t physically type an em dash it would be normal to be suspicious if you see one.

          Edit: turns out you can physically type them. Still, given that it’s not normal to use them it’s a sign in my book.

          • SmokeyDope
            link
            fedilink
            English
            6
            edit-2
            4 days ago

            — try long pressing your phone keyboards hyphen key.

            • @[email protected]
              link
              fedilink
              5
              edit-2
              4 days ago

              Ok. You can physically type them I concede, but normal humans don’t use them. Still a sign.

              I would bet that the amount of non proof writers that uses em dashes goes up just because people see that it’s associated with ai and want to be funny.

                • @[email protected]
                  link
                  fedilink
                  64 days ago

                  Yah but your user name is “LanguageIsCool” and you talk about the fun levels of various types of punctuation. You are definitely the outlier here. A cool outlier but an outlier none the less.

        • zqps
          link
          fedilink
          1
          edit-2
          4 days ago

          If it’s a longer post it’s usually clear that it’s written by a human even with all of these superficial indicators.

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        25
        edit-2
        5 days ago

        Yes, it’s nuanced but it breaks up the sentence flow in a different way. Also used for listing things. A comma is more a small pause, like this. A semicolon is used to differentiate two independent related thoughts ; it’s kind of a combination between a period and a comma. A dash can be used for many things - a longer separating of thoughts, listing different points such as this, or just as an intentional emphasis to add a more protracted pause.

        • @[email protected]
          link
          fedilink
          9
          edit-2
          5 days ago

          Your comment has a hyphen not an em dash. The point of the post is that AI likes to include em dashes, which are wildly uncommon in modern text, as most keyboards don’t have a key for it

              • @[email protected]
                link
                fedilink
                14 days ago

                I think this is something macOS does best — using shift+option hyphen is a bit quicker than alt+0151.

                • @[email protected]
                  link
                  fedilink
                  24 days ago

                  Long pressing the hyphen on the Google keyboard on Android also gives the option of selecting an en dash or em dash.

                  On Linux, if you have the compose key enabled, Compose key + three hyphens in a row will generate an em dash (en dash is two hyphens).

              • @[email protected]
                link
                fedilink
                14 days ago

                Odd, I see them used all the time, and I’m neither. So I guess either my experience is an outlier, everyone I talk to is secretly an LLM, or maybe the meme is pushing an easy conclusion because people in general are bad at picking up on LLM responses and want an easy punctuation mark so they don’t have to think.

                • @[email protected]
                  link
                  fedilink
                  34 days ago

                  I see them used all the time

                  Weird, i hardly ever see a normal hyphen, let alone an em dash, but of course it’s not a foolproof method to detect ai, just a strong indicator

        • @[email protected]
          link
          fedilink
          125 days ago

          aah, so it’s more a choice about the intended sound or flow of a text and not necessary a difference in grammatic constructs, simmiliar to using an oxford comma, or not.

          interesting, i’ll have to pay some attention to that, when reading.

          • @[email protected]
            link
            fedilink
            145 days ago

            It gives rhythm and flavor to your writing. Varied punctuation - where appropriate - is an easy way to spice anything up, give it a little more flavor, more control over how your words are read. There is a quote by Gary Provost that isn’t specifically about punctuation but illustrates this point well, it’s one of my favorites:

            This sentence has five words. Here are five more words. Five-word sentences are fine. But several together become monotonous. Listen to what is happening. The writing is getting boring. The sound of it drones. It’s like a stuck record. The ear demands some variety. Now listen. I vary the sentence length, and I create music. Music. The writing sings. It has a pleasant rhythm, a lilt, a harmony. I use short sentences. And I use sentences of medium length. And sometimes, when I am certain the reader is rested, I will engage him with a sentence of considerable length, a sentence that burns with energy and builds with all the impetus of a crescendo, the roll of the drums, the crash of the cymbals–sounds that say listen to this, it is important

          • @[email protected]
            link
            fedilink
            24 days ago

            Em dashes often replace parentheses:

            The company has a policy of having any newly hired employee (like Steve) introduce themselves at the monthly all hands meeting.

            The company has a policy of having any newly hired employee—like Steve—introduce themselves at the monthly all hands meeting.

            Em dashes also often replace colons:

            I’m going to bring my signature dish: bacon-wrapped dates.

            I’m going to bring my signature dish—bacon-wrapped dates.

            Em dashes are commonly used to denote interrupted speech:

            He started to explain, “I was hungry and you weren’t home yet so I—”

            “You’re not a diabetic, you can handle waiting a few extra minutes to eat”

            Replacing commas is unusual and probably incorrect according to most style guides.

            This is also highly localized. Style guides tend to apply only to one particular country, not all English-speaking countries. The AP guide is used by most American newspapers and magazines, and the Chicago Guide is used by most American book publishers. Each have their own rules on dashes.

  • Echo Dot
    link
    fedilink
    344 days ago

    I actually like using em dashes because it’s the correct thing to do. Also the Oxford comma, correct use of semi colon, and listing things in threes.

    • @[email protected]
      link
      fedilink
      775 days ago

      Most normal people, at least from my understanding, don’t use em dashes in text messages, let alone even use punctuation half the time. So if I see em dashes, yeah, my first thought is going straight to AI.

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        195 days ago

        Annoyingly I’ve used them for a number of years as a good way to make internet comments flow a bit more. However I find myself doing it less and less now because I’m worried people are just going to think I’m using an AI if they see an em dash.

        (You just long press dash on android to get to it, opt+shift+dash on Mac, and the admittedly Byzantine alt+0151 on windows. Can’t remember iOS off the top of my head, but I think it’s similar to android)

        • @[email protected]
          link
          fedilink
          English
          34 days ago

          Given that most people won’t even bother with punctuation at all, a long press for something they’ve likely never heard of before is so vanishingly unlikely it is more than safe to assume llm generation.

      • Ziglin (it/they)
        link
        fedilink
        95 days ago

        I don’t use em dashes but I do use punctuation (apparently some people find that passive aggressive and I don’t what to do). When someone else uses punctuation I just ignore it unless it doesn’t match their previous messages.

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        8
        edit-2
        5 days ago

        i use those a lot to indicate that i finished a thought rapidly (in most cases)

        like “what the fu—”

    • @[email protected]
      link
      fedilink
      English
      41
      edit-2
      5 days ago

      Indeed—your assertion is entirely accurate—the mere presence of em dashes within a text does not—in and of itself—serve as definitive proof of artificial intelligence authorship. This grammatical construct—a versatile and often elegant punctuation mark—can be employed by any writer—human or machine—to achieve various stylistic and semantic effects. Its utility—whether for emphasis—for setting off parenthetical thoughts—or for indicating a sudden break in thought—is undeniable.

      However—it is also true that—when analyzing patterns across vast datasets—certain stylistic tendencies can emerge. An AI—programmed to process and generate language based on extensive training corpora—might—through statistical correlation and optimization—exhibit a propensity for specific linguistic features. This isn’t—to be clear—a conscious choice by the AI—there’s no inherent preference for em dashes encoded within its fundamental algorithms. Rather—it’s a reflection of the patterns it has learned—the statistical likelihood of certain elements appearing together.

      So—while an em dash does not independently declare “I am AI”—its consistent and perhaps slightly overzealous deployment—alongside other less tangible but equally discernible patterns—might—for a discerning observer—suggest an origin beyond human hands. It’s about the entire tapestry—not just a single thread. It’s about the aggregate—the cumulative effect—the subtle statistical fingerprint. And that—I believe—is a distinction worth making.

        • SaltyIceteaMaker
          link
          fedilink
          17
          edit-2
          5 days ago

          i assume hand written, as that is excessive even for ai. im gonna test it tho

          edit:

          Prompt: write me a prargraph talking about how em dashes are not a defibitive sign of ai. use ecessive amounts of em dashes

          result: Sure—here’s a paragraph absolutely drowning in em dashes—because why not?


          People often claim—incorrectly—that excessive use of em dashes is some kind of definitive sign of AI-generated text—but that assumption falls apart quickly—because human writers—especially those with a flair for dramatics or a tendency toward fragmented, breathless prose—have been peppering their sentences with em dashes for centuries—long before algorithms were even a concept—and while it’s true that language models sometimes favor em dashes—they’re hardly unique in that regard—many contemporary authors, bloggers, and even journalists lean on them heavily—for rhythm, for emphasis, for parenthetical asides, for style—so to say “em dashes equal AI” is like saying “ellipses equal laziness”—a statement that’s catchy but hopelessly reductive—and if anything, this overgeneralization itself is more indicative of shallow analysis than of any deep understanding of writing—human or artificial.


          Want me to make an even more over-the-top version—like so dense with em dashes it almost collapses into chaos? Or keep it just slightly unhinged but still readable?

          answer: yes

          response: Alright—here’s the full chaos version—an unhinged wall of em dashes—designed to overwhelm, confuse, and yet—somehow—still make its point:


          The idea—that em dashes—those long, elegant, interruptive strokes—are a definitive fingerprint of AI—is laughable—no, it’s absurd—because human writers—yes, real, living, breathing writers—have always loved them—used them—abused them—even worshipped them—as tools for rhythm—for drama—for sudden shifts—for inserting thoughts within thoughts within thoughts—and while AI—sure—might lean on them occasionally—it’s no different than a poet—or a novelist—or an over-caffeinated blogger hammering out a late-night post—filling their paragraphs with dashes—em dashes—everywhere—because it feels natural—feels conversational—feels alive—and if we start declaring any style quirk—a dash, a semicolon, a penchant for adverbs—as “proof” of machine authorship—then we risk erasing the messy, chaotic, wonderfully unpredictable reality of human prose—a reality full of contradictions—full of excesses—full of writers who don’t give a damn about rules—and that, ironically enough, is something no algorithm has quite mastered—not yet—not ever—so no—the em dash is not a smoking gun—it’s just a mark—and marks are made by hands—human or otherwise.


          Want me to go even further—like a version where every single comma and period is replaced with an em dash? Or one that’s so self-aware it starts mocking its own overuse of dashes?

          • @[email protected]
            link
            fedilink
            55 days ago

            I can still tell these two paragraphs apart from the other one because of its voice. God, the chatgpt voice is tacky…

    • @[email protected]
      link
      fedilink
      125 days ago

      How the hell do you even type an em dash?

      I’m sure it’s possible (I know it’s easy on a touch keyboard), but if the person who sent it has never used em dashes in their life, then it’s pretty definitive proof. Otherwise, it’s just a big clue that you might combine with other factors.

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        English
        9
        edit-2
        4 days ago

        Word and Google docs will translate them from –

        They’ll also give you the stupid smart quotes.

        I’ve never break up with anybody over text but if for some reason I had to I would certainly write it on a computer first.

        edit: LOL apparently lemmy markdown also translates them from --

      • Zagorath
        link
        fedilink
        55 days ago

        On a mobile phone it’s super easy. Long press the hyphen button and swipe over to the dash.

        On Mac it’s pretty easy still, but requires a little more knowledge. Option-shift-dash. (Without the shift gives you an en dash.)

        On Windows it’s the completely arcane alt-0151, and only possible if you have a numpad. I memorised it like 15 years ago and have regularly used it since, but it’s hard to blame people for not doing so.

        No idea about Linux.

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        English
        35 days ago

        You use use the compose key with a sequence of characters. Mine is right alt, so it’s gonna be:

        right alt, then -, then -, then -

    • ssillyssadass
      link
      fedilink
      255 days ago

      You are vastly underestimating the amount of people who don’t use em dashes at all.

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        24 days ago

        They don’t but the word processing software they likely use autocorrects them in. What’s next, proper semi-colon use and Oxford commas means you’re a bot?

        Spelling & Grammar tool just wreaking havok.

        • @[email protected]
          link
          fedilink
          54 days ago

          most people aren’t writing texts in a fancier word processor than their phone’s default. Mine doesn’t – and I doubt every will – correct them

        • ssillyssadass
          link
          fedilink
          64 days ago

          I’ve seen more proper use of the semicolon and oxford commas than em dashes. The em dash is a lot more esoteric, that won’t change.

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        55 days ago

        I don’t have a good sense of this since I am a trained writer. Is it really so low that one would reasonably conclude an AI wrote something with them?

        • ssillyssadass
          link
          fedilink
          115 days ago

          It’s basically unseen outside of professionally written stuff. Most people use commas. But AI like to use them a fair bit, more than the average internet user.

            • @[email protected]
              link
              fedilink
              English
              24 days ago

              I’d say using professional academic notation to break up with someone over text is a bigger red flag than using chatgpt to write it.

              • @[email protected]
                link
                fedilink
                34 days ago

                Haha I mean, I use em dashes all the time in my writing, so it’s not really accurate to say academic (my mistake). But maybe it comes across as stupid.

          • @[email protected]
            link
            fedilink
            04 days ago

            You actually can – just long-press the dash.

            En-dash: –
            Em-dash: —
            Dot: •

            You can also do proper ellipses by long-pressing the full stop….

            And long-press most letters for more options: ă é ï ø û æ œ ç ñ $ £ €

            Pretty much everything is in there.

        • @[email protected]
          link
          fedilink
          24 days ago

          Using honest to goodness em dashes instead of just a hyphen - pretty uncommon.

          Even a hyphen would be pretty unusual in a real text message, because they’re more annoying to get than other common punctuation on the phone keyboard, and autocomplete won’t put them in.
          In a chat app, a hyphen would probably be somewhat common since it’s right there on the keyboard, but a true em dash would be pretty unusual since most chat apps aren’t going to be doing autocorrect like a word processor would, and you’d have to use the magic key combination to insert it.

          But we don’t have the original text so we can’t tell if the original author confused a hyphen with an em dash, though

    • @[email protected]
      link
      fedilink
      55 days ago

      It’s honestly unhinged. So many stupid people trying to desperately grasp at something to feel more correct than you™

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        55 days ago

        If you were playing yahtzee, and your opponent only rolled sixes, would you not say anything? No, no, rolling a six isn’t proof of cheating—that’s… that’s ridiculous.

        Also, don’t tell me you need to roll more than sixes to win yahtzee, I don’t know any other dice games.

        • Zagorath
          link
          fedilink
          35 days ago

          Also, don’t tell me you need to roll more than sixes to win yahtzee

          Ok but this is an interesting question.

          If you rolled only sixes, you’d score 30 in the upper section, missing the bonus.

          Then in the lower section you’d get 30 in each of 3 & 4 of a kind and chance (90 points) and 50 for the Yahtzee. One could make a case that it’s a weird full house, but that’s a stretch.

          That’s a total of 170 points. That’s not going to do very well when 250 is often considered a minimum “good” score.

          However…some rules give you an extra bonus for a second or subsequent Yahtzee. With that, you could actually win with all sixes. Just get 100 after 100 after 100 and end up with over a thousand points.

          • @[email protected]
            link
            fedilink
            24 days ago

            I’d looked up a score card first and there were precisely three checkboxes for extra, succulent, 100-point-scoring yahtzees. What I don’t know is if this is a limit of the paper or of Hasbro’s imagination for crowning human achievement.

    • dual_sport_dork 🐧🗡️
      link
      fedilink
      English
      335 days ago

      Including this very platform.

      Lemmy will automatically render a double dash – as an en dash, and a triple dash — as an em dash.

      I usually just type alt + 0151, though, because I’m a nerd.

        • macniel
          link
          fedilink
          6
          edit-2
          5 days ago

          You only get a horizontal line when you have the three dashes sit alone on a line


          But when you use it inline—then it should render as an emdash or–an endash

        • dual_sport_dork 🐧🗡️
          link
          fedilink
          English
          25 days ago

          Some of this may depend on your client. If you do a triple dash by itself on its own line:


          You get a horizontal rule in most clients, including the default web UI and all of the major browser based clients I’ve tried.

        • dustycups
          link
          fedilink
          15 days ago

          Why am I bold? why does markdown do my head in. Its really not that hard.

          • @[email protected]
            link
            fedilink
            25 days ago

            I’m not seeing it in Voyager, but I’m guessing you made a header:

            Main header
            ===========
            
            Level 2 header
            --------------
            

            The number of dashes or equality signs doesn’t have to match, so I think that’s what you did.

  • @[email protected]
    link
    fedilink
    English
    134
    edit-2
    4 days ago

    You can pry my em dashes — which I use regularly in writing because I love them — from my cold dead hands (To be fair, I really like parenthetical statements too, could be an ADHD thing).

    • @[email protected]
      link
      fedilink
      115 days ago

      Parenthetical statements are so very useful (as they can denote a hierarchy of thoughts (and do many other things))! I love them.

    • Track_Shovel
      link
      fedilink
      English
      45 days ago

      I’m with you. I used to use a lot more parentheses, but the break is cleaner. I opt for en dashes, though, because I find too em dashes to be too long. That could just be a MSWord preference because I don’t distinguish on other platforms.

    • @[email protected]
      link
      fedilink
      55 days ago

      Yesss em dashes are my babies! They’re have more versatility in breaking up sentences than commas IMO, and they don’t have as many annoying rules as semi-colons.

      But I also write stories as a hobby so thats the reason its something I care about

    • TheEmpireStrikesDak
      link
      fedilink
      14 days ago

      I’ve been using em dashes for years. I learnt the alt code for them, because using hyphens for dashes looks awful (before that I’d do the double hyphen for an em dash). Also, like me, I notice you put spaces around the em dashes, which is apparently incorrect, but also according to me is the right way to do it.

  • @[email protected]
    link
    fedilink
    11
    edit-2
    4 days ago

    Em dash will sour your milk and lose your car keys. It will cause your socks to become odd pairs and fart in the lift when your crush alights. Em dash is responsible for the failure of the mars climate orbiter but ran a successful misinformation campaign against SI units.

    • @[email protected]
      link
      fedilink
      115 days ago

      I never got what’s the deal with that. Sincerely. If there’s a break up, what’s the difference doing it by text, phone or in person.

      My gut says me that people may prefer in person because they saw a better chance of avoid the breakup that way, but I’m not sure.

      Other than that if it’s over it’s over, I don’t see the media in which the message is deliver. For all I care as if it’s via smoke signals.

      • @[email protected]
        link
        fedilink
        105 days ago

        It’s about respect for the other person, as I see it. You wouldn’t be a little miffed if your wife of 10 years sent you a “k thx bai (link to divorce papers)” instead of talking in person?

        • @[email protected]
          link
          fedilink
          English
          24 days ago

          Context is everything. Yeah, your wife of 10 years deserves the face to face, more than once. A dude I dated for a few months that showed no emotional intelligence specifically told me he’d prefer a text. I obliged when I realized it wasn’t going anywhere and I didn’t want to keep up a casual relationship. He then asked to talk in person, though, and I again obliged.

      • Deme
        link
        fedilink
        5
        edit-2
        5 days ago

        I think its basic courtesy to put even a little effort to something as important as a breakup. Not doing it face to face or at least in a call removes the interaction completely. It’s taking the easiest possible path in a situation that will certainly affect the other person in a significant manner. It’s cold. Using a LLM for said text like in the meme is even lower effor and leaves the recipient feeling utterly worthless. Basically the same thing as getting fired via email.

    • @[email protected]
      link
      fedilink
      24 days ago

      As someone who used to do shit like this all the time (perma-blocking people for perceived disrespect), it’s not a great way to live.

      Yeah they made a shitty situation worse, but being a coward doesn’t make you a bad person. Besides, they’re almost certainly a kid.

    • VeryFrugal
      link
      fedilink
      English
      25 days ago

      I figured out that this works as a guilt for a lot of people who were abused in a relationship.

      Call them, text them, or even better, ghost their ass if they ever toxic. You’re more than fine with that.

  • @[email protected]
    link
    fedilink
    English
    195 days ago

    Hasn’t word done this simce about offoce 2007? the autoformat as you type feature, specifically…

    I only know this because I fucking hate it and have been religiously turning it off

  • @[email protected]
    link
    fedilink
    English
    104 days ago

    Another take:

    She feels bad about it, wrote a incoherant babbling mess of run-on sentences and incoherant rants about your relationship, she then re-read it and found it to be disproportionately mean and possibly hurtful, She then shoved it all into an LLM and prompted:

    I’m breaking up with my boyfriend. This is all my natural heartfelt take on the situation <inserts text>, but I find the tone to be callous, angry, and hurtful. Can you please reword this to make the reader feel less attacked, possibly up to and including removing grievances, but at the same time making it clear that this decision is final and that I’d like to part ways amicably, and also that he’s not getting his dog back.

  • @[email protected]
    link
    fedilink
    4
    edit-2
    4 days ago

    Improve my breakup rhyme:

    Velvets are blue,
    this is a rhyme,
    I was with you,
    until this time.

    (some unromantic 70B LLM)

    spoiler

    Here’s an improved version of your breakup rhyme:

    Velvet memories fade to blue, Our moments lost, like dreams anew, We shared our hearts, you and I, Until goodbye said farewell to our sky.

    Key improvements made:

    Enhanced Imagery

    Added “velvet memories” to create richer sensory detail

    Used “fade to blue” instead of simple “are blue” for more dynamic imagery

    Introduced “dreams anew” to add depth to the metaphor

    Improved Emotional Depth

    Added “lost” to emphasize the pain of separation

    Used “shared our hearts” to acknowledge the depth of connection

    Created more impactful ending with “farewell to our sky” suggesting complete separation

    Better Structure

    Maintained consistent four-line structure

    Enhanced rhythm while keeping natural flow

    Preserved end rhymes (“blue”/“new”, “I”/“sky”)

    More Sophisticated Language

    Replaced generic “rhyme” with meaningful imagery

    Changed simple “was with you” to more poetic “we shared our hearts”

    Transformed basic “until this time” into more evocative “until goodbye said farewell”

    The revised version maintains the core theme of your original while adding layers of meaning and emotional resonance. Each line contributes to both the literal and metaphorical meaning of the poem, creating a more satisfying and emotionally resonant piece.

  • kamen
    link
    fedilink
    124 days ago

    As if breaking up over text isn’t bad enough by itself.

      • kamen
        link
        fedilink
        English
        64 days ago

        I’ll send over my butler to let her know we’re no longer a thing. /s