A lot of these are delivered by bike nowadays, no?
Edit: since people keep asking without reading below, I mean specifically in NYC.
Varies. In Oslo Foodora started as bike deliveries; the cyclists unionised and got better pay and working conditions, and nooow it seems to be a lot of Romanians in beaters that don’t look like they’d pass their next EU inspections, don’t pay tolls or for parking, and apparently there seems to be something like trafficking going on.
Well I meant in NYC specifically but that’s interesting.
In a large metropolis, yes. Unfortunately most cities in the USA are spread out so much that you almost need a car to go to the bathroom.
there’s no way to make delivery worth it for small items like this, be it by foot / bike / electric scooter / carrier pigeon
Well apparently there is considering it’s a popular service. I’m not sure what you mean by this.
It’s popular because the companies that run it are profiting enough to keep doing it. The actually drivers, however, don’t realize how much they’re being screwed over.
It’s popular because the companies that run it are profiting enough to keep doing it.
Is this even true? I thought most of these companies were still in the “chuck VC money into the furnace” phase.
I heard the same. But that was a few years ago. There was a popular DoorDash sub on Reddit that covered all of this stuff. So many drivers complaining about shit there.
I drove down doordash for a while. Trust me, every driver knows how much they’re getting screwed. You’ll never be more class-conscious than having 30+ interactions with people as broke as you every day, and seeing every possible angle of fellow working class jobs. You do it for one of several reasons: you want some tiny modicum of control in your life through your schedule, you desperately need the money and it’s easy as fuck to get a delivery job, or you started it for one of those reasons or something similar, got good enough to be ahead of the curve, and it’s now more appealing than finding something else. The last one was where I was at.
I had done the job enough that I was making $18 an hour, well above the average in my area, and despite needing to pay for gas and taxes on a 1099a, it was still more appealing to keep control and flexibility over my life than to do something else. I could take days off whenever I wanted, see friends during the week, and coordinate my schedule with my fiancee easily. You’re very aware that you’re getting screwed, but you choose the devil you know, as they say.
you desperately need the money and it’s easy as fuck to get a delivery job
Ding ding ding.
I don’t hate myself enough to do Doordash (yet), but I’m too fucking autistic to keep any job other than rideshare.
If you don’t have a fuel efficient car, I wouldn’t even consider it. If you do, you need to devote a lot of time to it before it becomes at all worth it (100 orders in last 30 days, good ratings, and above 70% order acceptance rate). Once you’re there, it’s basically as profitable as any other service job, but with the caveat that it’s entirely on you and your executive function to work enough (very boring) hours to pay the bills.
Edit: also, wear and tear on your car is gonna be worth more than the job in any job where you use your personal car for 100% of the work. I would consider any of these jobs a temporary measure.
also, wear and tear on your car
And it should be mentioned that lots of short trips are hard on cars. EVs are probably much better for this, but I would guess that most delivery drivers (who are using their own personal vehicle) aren’t rolling around in EVs.
If you don’t have a fuel efficient car, I wouldn’t even consider it.
I encountered a guy doing DoorDash in a fucking RAM truck the other day. Just couldn’t believe what I was seeing.
I doubt we’ll ever get data to support this but I suspect most drivers aren’t drivers for very long. A few, who are otherwise entirely unemployable, may stick it out. It sounds like a much better deal than it is, I think most people realize that after a relatively short time.
My experience with doing deliveries was the only people who had been doing it for a while were a: broke as fuck and 2, exactly the opposite of the type of person you might want handling your food.
I did delivery for long term at one point (doordash). Once you reach their highest rating and learn which orders to take/deny, it is actually quite profitable. Still massively exploitative, of course, but at the time I was making $18 an hour (high for my area), and that’s also factoring in breaks and commute. I had a very fuel efficient hybrid which added to the value proposition. I was broke as fuck at the time, but it wasn’t the job’s fault, more the fact that I only worked exactly the amount of hours I needed each month to pay for my basic necessities and rent, and spent the rest with my friends and fiancee.
How about factoring in vehicle wear, tear, insurance, and depreciation? You said “hybrid” so I’m thinking car, not bicycle. And cars are pretty damn pricy per (especially city) mile, hybrid or not. Also regular insurance policies often don’t allow doing such gigs for obvious reasons.
I also don’t know labor laws in the US, but here those companies got in major trouble because even ignoring the exploitative nature of the gig, they were misclassifying employment as “contract work” which allowed them to avoid paying employment taxes, days off, medical pay, insurance, etc. basically displacing all that burden on the State’s social systems. That’s the definition of unsustainable.
It isn’t sustainable. My car takes significantly less damage per mile than a gas only car, and the gas is nearly negligible compared to the pay when you get consistent 40+ mpg. Even then, it’s still not sustainable. I wouldn’t recommend the job to anyone, but if someone was desperate or really set on it, then it should really only be a temporary stop-gap to something more sustainable.
Yeah I think from the people I’ve talked to, it’s mostly people who do it part time as a way to make a bit of extra cash or like students who otherwise don’t have time for a full time job but still need some form of income.
There’s an episode on a Canadian show called Late Bloomer that tells the story of one of those bike food delivery drivers who is an international student and trying to basically survive. Good show, really fucking sad episode.
The actually drivers, however, don’t realize how much they’re being screwed over.
Stop assuming stupidity because a lower monetary class.
Everyone realizes and knows this, you can’t do anything about it when you’re struggling to feed your family and you just need extra money.
I didn’t say anyone was stupid and I certainly didn’t imply class being an issue…
There’s a reason you assume everyone who’s a delivery driver doesn’t understand the cruelty of our monetary system.
I understand it might not be malicious but you should think on why that assumption is made.
I will order 4 or 5 meals at once and then put them in my fridge to eat over the next week.
When you’re disabled and cannot leave your home, this kind of stuff becomes a lifeline.
exactly why airport pizza has such an amazing business model, because pizza can be delivered efficiently by aircraft to places up to a couple hundred miles away without relying on non-existant roads or rail
With the tax being $8.04, the order is not that small.
Pizza delivery has been popular for several decades. Pizza is cheap but they made the numbers work. It’s actually weird that it was just pizza until recently.
The cost is middlemen needing to get their cut. Half the cost here is them getting their cut. $15 to use an app one time is what is unsustainable here.
These things for college campuses are great. They take up no more space than a person and can be a huge help when one is busy or sick.
Pneumatic tubes!
An instant burrito in every home!
rofl
NYC actually used to have a citywide system like this. It was for mail but there’s no reason somebody couldn’t have snuck a burrito or a rolled-up pizza into one of those cannisters.
BRING IT BACK BRING IT BACK
Good news, everyone !
hsssss…thwooooop…KChUNK
I remember being a kid in the mid 90s, in a hospital that had such a system to send messages and pills around, the vast majority of their computers were not actually networked.
no. they are all delivered by car, even if they say it’s by bike.
bikes are too slow for be good for delivery
deleted by creator
Speed is measured differently in the US
yes, miles per hour instead of meters per second
Gridlocked traffic or having to deal with parking can change the math on this such that bikes make sense.
In the EU maybe, where there’s a lot of protected bike lanes and where most drivers are relatively competent (and don’t carry guns).
In SF it’s definitely done by electric moped
I mean in NYC specifically.
Just walk and buy the stuff. In a way, I miss how before apps, places just had two or three delivery guys
Related video; “Why Convenience is Killing Us” Levi Hildebrand - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tpe8te3PdkA
Just walk? Okay, I can do that if I want… Subway. 22 minutes. That’s fine. The next closest place to eat is FOUR HOURS there and back just walking. That is not a universal solution in the US.
You’re 100% correct and it’s very appropiate that we are discussing this in c/fuckcars .
If you live in midtown high-rise shit, you will pay $20, and waste 4 hrs of time and energy, now your kids crying and fiance fighting with you to not why just pay $30 and order delivery instead. It’s 200% not worth it but also means this shitty urban planning that priorities corporal revenues on its residents expense should change. Look it up btw even local restaurants suffer; The only winner here is Uber eats.
It’s a very unfortunate vicious cycle. Urban planning makes it easy for people to drive around and hard to walk around, which puts stores and eating places farther away, which makes online ordering more likely, which increases car traffic, which reinforces the need of urban planning for cars…
consequences of having human living spaces designed to prioritize non human entities,
Agreed, I miss delivery being associated with a restaurant. There was better accountability.
But I also live in a walkable area, so it’s easy for me to say ‘just walk’.
If you walk the roads near me you won’t live long.
Where the fuck do you live that’s so dangerous?!!
Where the fuck do you live that’s so dangerous?!!
Shitty suburban Ohio. No shoulder on the road, no bike lanes, no sidewalk. Two lane roads with relatively high speed limits and lots of heavy truck traffic.
Lots of crosses from dead pedestrians and cyclists. The last time I walked home two miles from the tire shop I had three people stop to offer me a ride. Everyone knows you shouldn’t be on these roads without a vehicle.
Oh, I’ve experienced that near Windham, OH. Makes total sense.
Delivery is good option for people with limited mobility
Well, sometimes youve had a few beers, then really want some Taco Bell. Better to door dash it than to go driving while tipsy. The service charge is really a ‘failed to plan ahead’ charge.
Isn’t NYC one of the most walkable cities in the US?
NYC encompasses 5 boroughs with varying levels of walkability and transit even within the same borough. Especially in winter, when not all property/business owners de-ice sidewalks like they’re supposed to.
Yes, though that’s faint praise considering how car-centric most of the US is. I’ve lived here without a car for most of my adult life, and it’s been fine.
I don’t get it either. That shit is so much more expensive. Not only are they charging you delivery fees and “convenience” fees, the base prices of what you’re ordering at are also inflated through apps like Doordash and Uber Eats. Something that is only $5 if you went and got it yourself is now $8, plus a delivery fee, plus other fees. And then there is also a chance that the person delivering it is a piece of shit who just steals your food.
Sometimes you need the convenience.
If I have to work late and don’t have time to cook, and my kids need to be in bed in an hour and a half, then I’m going to pay a little extra, and that’s fine.
Not everyone has a wide open schedule every night.
And even if your food does show up … it’s cold. Do people just not know that food tastes worse the longer it’s been out of the oven?
Agreed 100%. It takes longer, costs more, and it’s worse. My credit card gives me a premium membership and monthly vouchers and I still don’t order that shit because it still costs more and stuff from the freezer tastes better.
Wife and I can also make better food, which may contribute to my distaste for delivery apps.
Price is inflated because the platform is charging those fees to the restaurant, so the restaurant just pass these fees off to the customer by setting their prices higher for the apps.
I only demand the raw ingredients to be grown halfway around the world, shipped by climate-controlled container in giant cargo boats, trucked from the port to the backstore, kept in refrigerated display cases, and sold in disposable containers.
But it’s the last mile that’s going to change the world, you see.
It actually is the last mile that matters. When shipped half way around the world it’s in bulk. The amount of fuel per unit of food is surprisingly low.
For the last mile you’re not getting 100 meals delivered even though they would fit in the car. The fuel to food ratio is insane for 1 meal.
Of course buying local is better when you have the option, but it doesn’t make nearly as much of a difference as last mile delivery.
Not only fuel to food ratio, but also the amount of labor. If it takes someone 20 minutes to deliver your food, including their return trip), that is 1/3 of an hour of labor.
I know this sub is focused on the vehicle use and ridiculous inefficiency of this in terms of fuel, but the labor to have someone do this is what really runs up the bill. I suppose that’s a good thing, because it limits demand.
Gig delivery method is also the most inefficient way to do this. Some people cite medical reasons why they can’t leave the house, but many grocery stores manage their own deliveries. When the store handles it, the delivery goes from Store to Point A to Point B… Gig goes from Home to Store to Point A to Store to Point B…
Are you trying to say food delivery could be efficient? I’m not sure if I’m reading this correctly, because even as someone who isn’t involved in shipping logistics but is involved in some conceptually adjacent logistics, it’s absolutely clear to me why the last mile is harder/more expensive than the “other miles”. Especially in takeout food delivery because of the additional constraints.
Or is this sort of like, pro super-independence and we should avoid shipping in general and prefer local resources?
I’ve lived several places. In some, I could walk to get food, and I gladly did so. In others, I could not.
Should I have starved?
If your argument is “you should have driven,” then you are depending on cars. Whether it’s the buyer or an employee doing the driving has little effect on how much a car is being used. The environment doesn’t care who’s burning the gas.
That almost makes it a steal, $20 for delivery or $20k + fees (tag, insurance, license, etc) + the cost of the food.
I do get your point though, the shit we have in the US terrible, the are only really walkable places are only in a few overly-expensive areas.
Don’t expect problems to have neat, individually actionable solutions. Most don’t.
But cooking your own food is pretty damn near to being that.
Provided you have time, and the groceries available, and the…
Point is, taking every observation personally is missing the forest from the trees. Objecting to overuse of cars is an objection to a systemic issue (usually insufficientpublic transport), and it won’t be solved by individual action. Responding to it with “Well, I need a car, actually…” is missing the point. Same with delivery: getting into a “well, I can’t walk to food” “well, you should cook”, “well, I …” is missing the point of “there’s a whole mess of traffic that’s both expensive and has been managed without earlier - that’s weird, wonder what changed to cause it?”
Should I have starved?
I mean I’d say you could’ve cooked yourself and saved many trips by car. But fair enough if we assume you must order food (which is quite uncommon to do on a very regular basis where I live), then sure.
And how do I get the ingredients to cook exactly?
We’re back where we were.
You don’t need 1 car trip for every single meal if you cook yourself. You obviously buy in bulk, usually for a whole week. That’s 6/7 car trips saved.
That’s kinda the whole point of having a car, so you can transport a lot of goods home. At least, that’s the point in my country.
In practice, sometimes you have to improvise, if something goes bad, or you realize you’re missing a key ingredient, or you’re too tired after a hard day etc
Sure. But none of those things happen on a daily basis. At least, they shouldn’t with a modicum of planning. It still saves probably at least half of the trips
Sure. But none of those things happen on a daily basis.
No, but in aggregate they do happen millions of times per day
Well yea but I meant for a single person. In aggregate, it still saves probably at least half of the trips.
You’re not really arguing that getting takeaway and buying food ingredients in bulk is just as bad when it comes to the amount of car trips, right? That seems ludicrous.
in history we learned how most civilizations starved to death until pizza hut started delivering food to people.
before then people would starve as there was no other way to get/prepare food at home.
So did you hunt for your dinner last night?
yes, because the optimal solution is clearly the most extreme counterexample you can imagine
An extreme counterexample is required in response to your extreme mischaracterization of the guy’s argument. I’m just continuing down your logic of exaggerating the argument to the point of being nonsensical. It turns out you only like it when you do it to other people, but not when its done to you.
my point is that a society optimise for an individual ends up being needlessly wasteful and miserable for an individual.
a society were time is so scarse that is in your best interest to have someone barely making a living so you can have overpriced cold meals, because having time to just exist and do groceries and cook is unfeasible.
however a more collectivist and less atomised society you would rarely be in such situation in the first place
You’re right, but that’s wanting something that the guy you’re replying to is powerless to change by himself. Simply arguing against using gig economy delivery services without fixing the underlying cause for why they need to use it doesn’t solve the problem.
he can change it, we all can,
participate in your community, find local mutual aids…
it’ll make you feel much better, less powerless, and make their neighbourhood a much better place to be.
Isn’t most delivery in NYC done by bicycle?
Hiring a whole middleman to chauffer your burrito (if you would be able to do it yourself) is unsustainable even if they walked.
Having one person deliver multiple meals to different people in a single trip sounds more sustainable than each individual person making the round trip…
The big cities in India have this thing (tiffin) where the husbands ride the trains in to work and the wives stay at home and make their lunches, which they pack into metal containers and take to the train station later in the morning. Workers gather up all the tinned meals and pack them into giant racks which then ride the trains into the cities, and other workers deliver them. It’s actually pretty efficient and makes use of rail capacity which would be otherwise unused.
And despite the scale of this operation, they never - like never - make a delivery mistake.
If you “think” enough about it everything but living in cave fucking a rock is unsustainable and a result of you being too dumb to do everything yourself.
Bet you lazy bastards don’t even sew your own leathers. You’d rather “trade your surplus income for goods and services.”
Goddamn millennials.
bringing people food is ableist
How so? Do ingredients for home cooking just apperate? Should everyone live on a farm with public transit nearby?
Lol no, literally my point. Transporting food wholesale to a centralized place is sustainable and efficient.
And then how does that food get from the centralized wholesale place to your kitchen? Im not just talking out my ass, this is a heavily studied topic.
Yeah that’s interesting. I wouldn’t mind a food bus that drops off food house to house I’m sure that exists in some places and that’s definitely more efficient. Although I’m sure right now the food is the same price and the service costs extra which wouldn’t happen if it came straight from a distro idk.
I was talking about one person bringing one prepared meal for another person.
Is DoorDash etc one meal at a time? Do they really not consolidate orders? I didn’t realize…
Afaik it depends on the situation. If it’s an efficient route and a driver accepts multiple orders from the same restaurant they might be able to take more than one. But in general they don’t restaurant hop, and back in the day when I had friends who did Uber eats, it would have to be a choice by the person to pick up more than one order at a time, so it’s one driver per restaurant per time window of accepting and order and delivering it at least. And that’s probably only assuming you’re in a busy city and not a slower rural area.
I only say it’s unsustainable because after the food you order from the restaurant is made there are now two people in the chain for a meal for one person. That doesn’t square up even before you factor in the cost.
This is dumb, hating for the sake of hating just shows a low level of thinking. Cars are very useful tools that have practical applications that aren’t going away any time soon, and delivery services are an example of that.
The issue with cars is that we decided to designed our cities and towns around them at the expense of pedestrians, culture, and the environment. This has spawned societies that are plagued with long commutes, inactive lifestyles, dangerous infrastructure, smog, and an arms race to get comically huge cars. Criticizing the car industry, the car lobby, specific aspects of cars, or our urban layouts is perfectly valid. Blindly hating on cars just because they’re cars is counterproductive.
I assume that most deliveries in NYC are by push bike couriers and vesper type scooters. Thats more typical than yank tanks for this sort of thing in most densely populated cities I’ve seen.
“I have to order Doordash because I live in a food desert”
“Can you taxi to the grocery store and back for about the same as the delivery fee?”
“No”
Taking a taxi 20 minutes away can be like $50 each way and involve an hour-long wait. Taxi service has changed a lot in some areas.
I use doordash because I’m tired AF and it’s 9pm (stores are closed) and there is nothing in the fridge.
Paying an extra 10 bucks to get food delivered while I can relax for 30m an drink a beer is priceless.
That’s the definition of luxury and discretionary spending
People can’t follow a conversation for one fucking second I swear
telling american pleb he should check his consumption habit… might as well called his mum a whore lol
We call our moms whores here, not our mums.
I used it when I was working 100 hour weeks and wanted to spend every hour after 9 pm too stoned and drunk to move. It was an expensive luxury, but also the one maintaining me at the stress level where I wouldn’t want to kill myself. I’d order enough to split over multiple days so it wasn’t as obscene.
Been there… Working like that with right…
But yeah when you are in that situation, food out is the least of your concern when you can have a metal break down at any point.
Cooking for your self is can be seen a luxury too nowadays I guess… Look at that peasant with all that free time to cook!
I don’t care.
edit: seriously, the shame you people feel is pathetic. I don’t need you to confess or explain your takeout life to me ffs. I guess you just need people to tell you your decisions are OK. Man the fuck up
not sure what point you’re making – it seems like you’re criticizing anyone who engages in this ? regardless of context, circumstance, ability, or reason???
this is some quality ragebait right here
I fucking hate paying delivery fees, or getting food delivered. I have a car, and feet. I’ll gladly just pick the food up myself
I have feet and a car. I’d rather pay an extra $5 and save myself 30-45m of time.
I personally find delivered food worse as it’s often sat around due to maybe not being the first drop. I’ll collect all day.
I haven’t ordered delivery food in literal years (think last time was 2021?). If I want to eat something that I didn’t make myself, I’m just going out to eat. Saves me from a bunch of trash plus I prefer not having the smell of some food at home. And the kebab place close to me where eating is uncomfortable doesn’t deliver anyways, I’m just getting it there and eat at home. Walking those five minutes isn’t really an issue…
It’s kind of wild how the standard fare of pizza and chinese food delivery was absorbed by gig work. They used to be employees of the restaurant.
Technology should have made restaurant deliverer’s lives easier and increased their efficiency. They should have made more money and worked less.
Instead we got gig workers who are basically impoverished wage slaves. They get no rights and no benefits. What is worse is whatever temporary profits they made have been sucked up by corporations by now.
This is a great case study for how to not use technology and how Tech Bros are not disrupters, they are destructors who profiteer, choke out, and then destroy markets.
that’s what capitalism does to technology.
it isn’t there to improve lives, it’s there to funnel as much capital to shareholders as possible
Not sure about other places but here when you order pizza, it is MUCH cheaper to call the restaurant directly and have them deliver it. It’s usually faster too.
One chinese restaurant out here still does it I since they had a fleet of cars. But the local pizza joints and all the chains just contract through a delivery service app. It isn’t usually doordash or ubereats, but the driver almost always is anyway.
So these days even the delivery apps are middlemen between the restaurant and the drivers. (They provide the menus and the transaction service and coordinate with all available driver delivery apps.)
Same, local Chinese places near me still deliver as far as I know.
